[Grammar] the property of the residents

[kadioguy]

of
PREPOSITION
[...]
4. used for saying who something belongs to

the property of the residents

They ended up living in the house of Jeanne’s oldest brother.

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/of_1
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a. the property of the residents

b. the property of the residents' (my version)

c. They ended up living in the house of Jeanne’s oldest brother.

d. They ended up living in the house of Jeanne’s oldest brother's. (my version)

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1. Do (a) and (b) mean the same?

2. Do (c) and (d) mean the same?

PS - The following discussion may interests you: https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/threads/259679-I-m-a-friend-of-Susi

 

[tedmc]

(b) and (d) with apostrophe "s" are not correct.

"Jeanne's oldest brother's house" is likely to be said.

 

[kadioguy]

(b) and (d) with apostrophe "s" are not correct.

Could you tell me why?

 

[tedmc]

Could you tell me why?

It is clear when you say "the property of the residents" that the property belongs to the residents. The apostrophe 's' is superfluous.

 

[kadioguy]

It is clear when you say "the property of the residents" that the property belongs to the residents. The apostrophe 's' is superfluous.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that the ones with apostrophe are not correct. They can be just a style of writing. :-?

 

[GoesStation]

But that doesn't necessarily mean that the ones with apostrophe are not correct. They can be just a style of writing. :-?

They are incorrect. The preposition "of" establishes the sense of possession and it's wrong to add an apostrophe to a noun when "of" makes it clear that it's the possessor of something.

You may wonder why sentences like He's a friend of John's don't violate this rule. I don't know. That construction is an exception. The Court of St. James's is another which is, I think, just a fossilized old usage.

 

[kadioguy]

What do you think about this sentence?

Can't you throw out that old bike of Tommy's?

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/of?q=Of

I think it is the same kind as (d).

 

[GoesStation]

What do you think about this sentence?

Can't you throw out that old bike of Tommy's?

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/of?q=Of

I think it is the same kind as (d).

Not quite. I think the choice of determiner is critical. Sentence D uses the definite article. The Oxford sentence uses a different one. That old bike of Tommy's and A friend of John's follow a different pattern from D.

I'm sure grammarians have thought about this question in depth and can explain it. I can't.

 

[kadioguy]

Not quite. I think the choice of determiner is critical. Sentence D uses the definite article. The Oxford sentence uses a different one. That old bike of Tommy's and A friend of John's follow a different pattern from D.

I'm sure grammarians have thought about this question in depth and can explain it. I can't.

(e) That old bike of Tommy's
(f) A friend of John's
(g) The house of Jeanne’s oldest brother's

So you think that (g) is grammatically different from (e) and (f), and that (g) is incorrect while (e) and (f) are correct.

Then how about (a) and (b)? Do you think that (b) is the same pattern as (g) (both of them include the definite article "the", and the apostrophe, i.e., the possessive) , so (b) is also incorrect while (a) is ​correct?

(a) the property of the residents
(b) the property of the residents'

 

[GoesStation]

(e) That old bike of Tommy's
(f) A friend of John's
(g) The house of Jeanne’s oldest brother's

So you think that (g) is grammatically different from (e) and (f), and that (g) is incorrect while (e) and (f) are correct. Yes.

Then how about (a) and (b)? Do you think that (b) is the same pattern as (g) (both of them include the definite article "the", and the apostrophe, i.e., the possessive) , so (b) is also incorrect while (a) is correct?

(a) the property of the residents
(b) the property of the residents'

Yes.

 

[jutfrank]

Could you tell me why?

I'll give you a simple practical rule:

Don't use a possessive apostrophe in possessive of-phrases unless the prepositional object is a person's name (Tommy, etc.)

There's some disagreement when the object is itself a possessive phrase. For example, with pronouns, we must use a possesive form:

this heart of me :cross:
this heart of mine :tick:

The apostrophe is not required because the word mine is already possessive.

However, when the object includes a possessive determiner (my/your/our, etc.), the grammaticality is not so clear:

the house of my brother :tick:
the house of my brother's :?:

My general advice to learners (as a teacher, not a grammarian) is to avoid forms of the second type above. If you follow my rule, b, d and g are incorrect.

 

[kadioguy]

I'll give you a simple practical rule:

Don't use a possessive apostrophe in possessive of-phrases unless the prepositional object is a person's name (Tommy, etc.)

h. I'm a friend of Susi.
i. I'm a friend of Susi's.

Following to your rule, I should use (i). Am I right?

However, you said in the following thread, "If you're disturbed by this, I suggest you use the former. It's more logical and easier to say."

https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/...iend-of-Susi?p=1391488&viewfull=1#post1391488

Could you tell me more about that?

 

[jutfrank]

My rule allows the use of i, but that doesn't mean you should use it.

Both h and i are fine. Use whichever one you prefer. I think h is a bit better for low to intermediate level learners, just because it's simpler. i might be better for higher level learners—especially those who are able to pronounce it very accurately.

 

[kadioguy]

My rule allows the use of i, but that doesn't mean you should use it.

Both h and i are fine. Use whichever one you prefer. I think h is a bit better for low to intermediate level learners, just because it's simpler. i might be better for higher level learners—especially those who are able to pronounce it very accurately.

Can this reply be applied to this case?

j. Can't you throw out that old bike of Tommy? (my version)

k. Can't you throw out that old bike of Tommy's?

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/of?q=Of
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Both (j) and (k) are fine. Use whichever one you prefer. I think (j) is a bit better for low to intermediate level learners, just because it's simpler. (k) might be better for higher level learners—especially those who are able to pronounce it very accurately.

 

[GoesStation]

Can this reply be applied to this case?

j. Can't you throw out that old bike of Tommy? (my version)

k. Can't you throw out that old bike of Tommy's?

J doesn't work. K is possible.

 

[kadioguy]

I'll give you a simple practical rule:

Don't use a possessive apostrophe in possessive of-phrases unless the prepositional object is a person's name (Tommy, etc.)

j. Can't you throw out that old bike of Tommy? (my version)

k. Can't you throw out that old bike of Tommy's?

J doesn't work. K is possible.

Could you tell why? Doesn't (J) follow jutfrank's rule? :shock:

 

[kadioguy]

j. Can't you throw out that old bike of Tommy? (my version)

k. Can't you throw out that old bike of Tommy's?

Sorry, I made a mistake. Forget post #16.

I meant to say why (h) is possible while (j) isn't.

h. I'm a friend of Susi.
i. I'm a friend of Susi's.

 

[kadioguy]

j. Can't you throw out that old bike of Tommy?

h. I'm a friend of Susi.
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j. doesn't work, but h. does. Could you please tell me about this?

 

[kadioguy]

j. Can't you throw out that old bike of Tommy?

h. I'm a friend of Susi.
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j. doesn't work, but h. does. Could you please tell me about this?

This is a hard question for me.

Here is my guess:

"Friend" and "Susi" are the same kind of thing (people), so the expression works. "Bike" and "Tommy" are not, so the expression doesn't work.

What do you think?

 

[GoesStation]

"Friend" and "Susi" are the same kind of thing (people), so the expression works. "Bike" and "Tommy" are not, so the expression doesn't work.

What do you think?

You may be on the right track, but I don't think it's a hard and fast rule. She's an old girlfriend of mine definitely works. That's an old guitar of mine would not, I think, raise eyebrows. It's an old house of mine is more of a stretch.

Replace "mine" with Tommy's and only the "girlfriend" sentence works.