[Grammar] trying to understand the word "follows"

[HeartShape]

I have a question I want to clarify. In the following sentence:

Explanation sentence: "An object complement is a noun, a pronoun, or an adjective which follows a direct object to rename it or state what it has become."

"To make her happy". her=direct object happy=object complement

I would have thought when the word "follows" is used "happy" would come before "her"; isn't that the meaning?

Example: "To make happy her" (sounds wrong I know but it's just a demonstration)

Instead the meaning of "follows" here is understood as reading the sentence from right to left not left to right. Isn't reading a sentence from right to left seem abnormal?

 

[Phaedrus]

I would have thought when the word "follows" is used "happy" would come before "her"; isn't that the meaning?

You seem to be thinking of "follow" in the sense of "follow the leader."

Try thinking of "follow" here in a sense analogous to Tuesday's following (coming after) Monday.

Does Tuesday appear to the right or left of Monday on a standard calendar?

 

[jutfrank]

Isn't reading a sentence from right to left seem abnormal?

That is generally considered abnormal, yes. Have you tried it?

As a native speaker, you obviously know that follows means comes after, not before.

 

[emsr2d2]

Isn't reading a sentence from right to left [STRIKE]seem[/STRIKE] abnormal?

See above. If you want to keep the word "seem", you have to start with "Doesn't".

 

[Phaedrus]

As a native speaker, you obviously know that follows means comes after, not before.

I think HeartShape was thinking of "come after" in the sense in which Snoopy comes after Charlie Brown when Snoopy follows Charlie Brown down the street.

In that sense, if we assume a left-to-right path of travel, the one that follows is to the left. But when one word follows another, it is to the right of the word it follows.

In each case, amusingly, "follow" has the sense of "come after." The crucial difference seems to be that there is motion in the former case, and fixity in the latter.

 

[Tdol]

I would have thought when the word "follows" is used "happy" would come before "her"; isn't that the meaning?

Words don't always come before the word they modify.

 

[jutfrank]

I think HeartShape was thinking of "come after" in the sense in which Snoopy comes after Charlie Brown when Snoopy follows Charlie Brown down the street.

In that sense, if we assume a left-to-right path of travel, the one that follows is to the left. But when one word follows another, it is to the right of the word it follows.

In each case, amusingly, "follow" has the sense of "come after." The crucial difference seems to be that there is motion in the former case, and fixity in the latter.

I see. So HeartShape is thinking that the words are travelling along the sentence?

HeartShape—it's your eyes that move along the sentence, not the words themselves! The words stay in place.

 

[HeartShape]

Oh my god. This is amazing! I understand it now.

I thought I better draw a diagram to illustrate my understanding of what went wrong and how I now understand it. They say a picture speaks a million words so here it is.

Phaedrus - Yes. You are right. The "follow the leader" is what I was thinking. That was really helpful. I started thinking it over and over why it still didn't make sense to me. And then it hit me. I started to look at the sentence "To make her happy" from a different perspective. See diagram.

In answer to one of your questions: Tuesday appears on the right.

Continuing on... the problems was with my grammar bearings if that makes sense. It's a bit like someone giving left and right directions. Left and right can be interpreted differently depending on which way they are facing. It wasn't the understanding of the word that was at fault, it was how I treated the sentence.

I'm glad I understand it now because "follow" is heavily used in explanations and not understanding it clearly hinders learning.

I can't believe how I have gone through all these years not understanding "follow" properly. I use to remember when people say "The following week" (means not this week but the next) or "following Monday" (means not this Monday but the next one) it used to haunt me.

Tdol - I know that. An adverb is an example.

jutfrank - the words are not travelling.

 

[HeartShape]

See above. If you want to keep the word "seem", you have to start with "Doesn't".

Thanks for this. I had an inkling “seem” wasn’t quite right but the answer didn't come to me. I will check through this later.

 

[HeartShape]

Hi,

I want to go through this again because there is something that still doesn't feel quite right here.

Let's take the word phrase "come after" in replacement of "follow".

Let's say we have the following phrase for the purpose of illustration: "word1 word2".

Examples:

1. word2 comes after word1 which shows this order: word1 word2.
2. word2 comes after word1 which could show this order: word2 word1

When there are only two words in a phrase "come after" could mean any order. What I am trying to demonstrate is ambiguity in order. Is that possible?

Or does "come after" implies a fix order?

 

[Phaedrus]

What I am trying to demonstrate is ambiguity in order. Is that possible?

Let's try a thought experiment, HeartShape. You can imagine this or actually perform the experiment. Take a ruler and lay it flat on a tabletop. Now take a pencil and point the tip of it at the 4-inch mark on the ruler. If you move the ruler one inch to the right, keeping the pencil stationary, the pencil tip will be pointed at the 3-inch mark. If, by contrast, you move the pencil one inch to the right, keeping the ruler stationary, the pencil tip will be pointed at the 5-inch mark.

The pencil tip represents the focal point of your attention, and the ruler a sequence of things (or people) in the external world. Now think about the different cases. When Snoopy is following Charlie Brown down the street, there is movement in a sequence of beings in the external world (in this case, an imaginary cartoon world). You see Snoopy coming after Charlie Brown in the sense in which you see the 3-inch mark coming after the 4-inch mark when the ruler is moving and the pencil is stationary.

Now, how about the other case? When you read a sentence, the focal point of your attention is moving. The words in the sentence are stationary. (We could also talk about hearing the words of a spoken sentence, of course.) You see one word coming after another in the sense in which you see the 5-inch mark coming after the 4-inch mark when the pencil is moving and the ruler is stationary. Are you starting to see the light? It's been a pleasure for me to try to explain this to you.

 

[jutfrank]

When there are only two words in a phrase "come after" could mean any order. What I am trying to demonstrate is ambiguity in order. Is that possible?

Or does "come after" implies a fix order?

To add to Phaedrus' illuminating post above, a very simple way to explain this is that follows always means appearing later. There is never any ambiguity of temporal order.

When listening, you hear one word first and then the following word later. This is true for all languages.

When reading, follows means appearing to the right. (Except with 'right to left' languages such as Arabic, where the reverse is true and it means to the left. But in all languages, you read one word first and then the following word later.)

With Charlie Brown and Snoopy, that means Charlie Brown arrives at a place first, and then Snoopy, following him, appears at that same point later. It doesn't matter which direction they are walking.

 

[HeartShape]

To add to Phaedrus' illuminating post above, a very simple way to explain this is that follows always means appearing later. There is never any ambiguity of temporal order.

When listening, you hear one word first and then the following word later. This is true for all languages.

When reading, follows means appearing to the right. (Except with 'right to left' languages such as Arabic, where the reverse is true and it means to the left. But in all languages, you read one word first and then the following word later.)

With Charlie Brown and Snoopy, that means Charlie Brown arrives at a place first, and then Snoopy, following him, appears at that same point later. It doesn't matter which direction they are walking.

When I say ambiguity this is what I mean:

Let’s say we are in a room we and have two boxes. We are facing the opposite of each other. In one of the boxes I hide an apple. To find the apple I tell you it's in the left box. But with just that bit of information there's a chance you could pick the wrong box because left could be my left or your left. But if I said, the apple is in your left side. With that extra bit of information you know which left I am talking about. That's what I mean by ambiguity. That's the problem I was facing with "come after".


If Snoopy and Charlie were standing next to each other stationary, who comes after whom? That’s how I was seeing the sentence.

 

[HeartShape]

If you move the ruler one inch to the right, keeping the pencil stationary, the pencil tip will be pointed at the 3-inch mark.

I think you mean move to the left not right.

 

[jutfrank]

I think you mean move to the left not right.

No, Phaedrus definitely means to the right.

If you move it an inch to the left, it will be at the 5-inch mark. Try it.

 

[HeartShape]

Let's try a thought experiment, HeartShape. You can imagine this or actually perform the experiment. Take a ruler and lay it flat on a tabletop. Now take a pencil and point the tip of it at the 4-inch mark on the ruler. If you move the ruler one inch to the right, keeping the pencil stationary, the pencil tip will be pointed at the 3-inch mark. If, by contrast, you move the pencil one inch to the right,keeping the ruler stationary, the pencil tip will be pointed at the 5-inch mark.

Hang on a minute. I see what has happened.

 

[HeartShape]

But there is another unanswered question: If Snoopy and Charlie were standing next to each other stationary, who comes after who?

 

[Phaedrus]

But there is another unanswered question: If Snoopy and Charlie were standing next to each other stationary, who comes after whom?

Then they would be like the words of a stationary written sentence, such as the one you are reading right now.

 

[HeartShape]

Then they would be like the words of a stationary written sentence, such as the one you are reading right now.

So that means Charlie comes after Snoopy, right?

 

[emsr2d2]

In the sentence, "Snoopy and Charlie are standing next to each other", the word "Charlie" comes after the word "Snoopy". In the actual situation (ie the dog and the boy actually standing somewhere), no one comes after anybody. They are standing still.