[Grammar] thought you forgot/ had forgotten

[GoesStation]

It is 'forgotten' in BrE

Thanks for pointing this out. Andi Harper, please disregard what I said about forgot above.

 

[andi harper]

I re-read my post a little while ago and noticed that the sentence could also work with the past perfect. Let me try to improve it by adding context.

I: "Hi, Andi! How are you?"
Andi: "I'm fine, thanks. I haven't seen you since Waiting for Godot. Lucky sure made a dramatic speech, didn't he?"
I: "I thought you left before the second act. Where did you hear Lucky's speech?"


Note: Every sentence should end with an appropriate punctuation mark. If another sentence follows it, there should be a space after that punctuation mark.

Could you please give another example when past simple is used after thought?

 

[andi harper]

I feel like it is common to use past simple when the verb is preceded by "than" as in:
That was a lot easier than I thought.
She went through far more than we suspected.
Is this true?

 

[Roman55]

If somebody told you that they always eat fish on Fridays and you see them tucking into a juicy steak, you could say, 'I though you ate fish on Fridays'.

 

[jutfrank]

I don't feel this thread is very clear and I think I can see why. The issue is to do with the core difference between the past simple and past perfect. Or rather, the mental events that would determine a speaker's choice of one aspect over another.

I think that the distracting element here may be the preceding I thought and when this thought happened.

In the examples of the boss and theatre-goer, the utterance I thought you left is perfectly understandable as the speakers are realising at that moment that the person didn't leave, so there's no need for a perfect tense. There's no retrospection from a point in past time. The I thought is distracting because they really mean I'm realising now that you didn't leave.

However, when I thought really does refer to a past thought, it would be likely that the speaker would use the perfect aspect, as in:

I sat in your seat because I thought you'd left.

Please let me know if that's not clear.

 

[konungursvia]

Thanks for pointing this out. Andi Harper, please disregard what I said about forgot above.

I believe both exist in fact.

 

[andi harper]

I don't feel this thread is very clear and I think I can see why. The issue is to do with the core difference between the past simple and past perfect. Or rather, the mental events that would determine a speaker's choice of one aspect over another.

I think that the distracting element here may be the preceding I thought and when this thought happened.

In the examples of the boss and theatre-goer, the utterance I thought you left is perfectly understandable as the speakers are realising at that moment that the person didn't leave, so there's no need for a perfect tense. There's no retrospection from a point in past time. The I thought is distracting because they really mean I'm realising now that you didn't leave.

However, when I thought really does refer to a past thought, it would be likely that the speaker would use the perfect aspect, as in:

I sat in your seat because I thought you'd left.

Please let me know if that's not clear.

Thanks for your explanation. But what about Roman55 who said that using past perfect will carry the idea of something not happening after all, as in: I thought you had left/forgotten (turns out the person didn't)? What's your take on that?

 

[jutfrank]

But what about Roman55 who said that using past perfect will carry the idea of something not happening after all, as in: I thought you had left/forgotten (turns out the person didn't)? What's your take on that?

Yes, I'm saying it's the I thought part that gives the idea of the thing not happening after all. It means I was wrong in thinking that...

 

[andi harper]

Yes, I'm saying it's the I thought part that gives the idea of the thing not happening after all. It means I was wrong in thinking that...

So, if I understand correctly, if following strict grammar rules I have to use past perfect after I thought but I suppose in spoken English I'm free to use past simple. Is that so?

 

[andi harper]

So, if I understand correctly, if following strict grammar rules I have to use past perfect after I thought but I suppose in spoken English I'm free to use past simple. Is that so?

Please answer me. :-(

 

[jutfrank]

So, if I understand correctly, if following strict grammar rules I have to use past perfect after I thought but I suppose in spoken English I'm free to use past simple. Is that so?

No, that's not what I meant.

You can use past perfect or past simple. You could understand that these are two different 'rules' and that you are free to choose between them. The best choice depends on the exact thought you want to express.

 

[PaulMatthews]

No.

If what you thought is a situation that is counterfactual at the time of uttering the thought, then the past simple is the tense:

Oh, you are here! I thought you were in Russia.

If what you thought is a situation in the time leading up to, or a in time before the time of uttering, then the past simple is the tense:

Oh, you have been here for only a year! I thought you had been here for ten years.
Oh, your father died yesterday. I thought he had died last year.

​

Did you mean to say 'past perfect' (not past simple) for the last two examples?

 

[GoesStation]

If what you thought is a situation in the time leading up to, or a in time before the time of uttering, then the past simple is the tense:

Oh, you have been here for only a year! I thought you had been here for ten years.
Oh, your father died yesterday. I thought he had died last year.
​

Past perfect, no?

 

[GoesStation]

I was just testing to see whether people actually read my posts. You have shown that some do, so I have now corrected my deliberate mistake.

That's my story, and I am sticking to it.

I find it extremely gratifying when other people make the kind of mistakes I'm prone to make.

 

[andi harper]

No, that's not what I meant.

You can use past perfect or past simple. You could understand that these are two different 'rules' and that you are free to choose between them. The best choice depends on the exact thought you want to express.

If you could please say this in other words or be more specific because I don't really understand what you're saying in this post.
Appreciate it.

 

[jutfrank]

If you could please say this in other words or be more specific because I don't really understand what you're saying in this post.
Appreciate it.

Both of the following sentences can be correct:

I thought you forgot.
I thought you had forgotten.

So which one should you choose?

In your previous post, you said:

So, if I understand correctly, if following strict grammar rules I have to use past perfect after I thought but I suppose in spoken English I'm free to use past simple. Is that so?

This view is not correct. There are not any "strict grammar rules" which determine which form is better, and it's not important whether you are speaking or writing.

Your choice depends on the situation and what you want to say exactly.

 

[andi harper]

No.

If what you thought is a situation that is counterfactual at the time of uttering the thought, then the past simple is the tense:

Oh, you are here! I thought you were in Russia.​

Hi. If you would be so kind as to give me another example for a counterfactual situation but with verbs like move, leave, go etc.
With gratitude.

 

[andi harper]

I don't feel this thread is very clear and I think I can see why. The issue is to do with the core difference between the past simple and past perfect. Or rather, the mental events that would determine a speaker's choice of one aspect over another.

I think that the distracting element here may be the preceding I thought and when this thought happened.


In the examples of the boss and theatre-goer, the utterance I thought you left is perfectly understandable as the speakers are realising at that moment that the person didn't leave, so there's no need for a perfect tense. There's no retrospection from a point in past time. The I thought is distracting because they really mean I'm realising now that you didn't leave.

However, when I thought really does refer to a past thought, it would be likely that the speaker would use the perfect aspect, as in:

I sat in your seat because I thought you'd left.

Please let me know if that's not clear.

Hello jutfrank. I just want to let you know what I understand so far. First of all, I want to make it clear that I understand this use of past simple after the I thought as in the examples: I thought you forgot appointments. I thought you ate fish on Fridays. (provided by Roman55) which imply a habitual thing.
Now that I've got that out of the way, I would like to focus on the situations when I'm talking to a person in front of me in the present time, I say:
I thought we moved/had moved past this. ( when you think you've already gone over a subject but your friend brings it up again)
I thought you left/had left. ( you think the person has left but later you see him again)
I thought I lost/had lost it. ( you think you've lost your handbag etc. but then find it)
I thought I turned/had turned it off. ( then your cellphone rings)
I think that in all of the examples above logically past perfect should be used and the reason is that this is effectively reported speech about an action in the past and we need backshift. But, we could also use past simple in all of them, and I have your post to back me up on this, since I'm saying that from a present perspective and the sequence is understood, so there's no need for past perfect.
Now I need you to tell me if I'm right or wrong.
Thanks.

 

[jutfrank]

Yes, your understanding is much better now.

 

[GoesStation]

You can use past simple in your examples if you're referring to another event or time:

I thought we moved past this last year.
I thought you left during the intermission.
I thought I lost it when we went to the bathroom.
I thought I turned it off ​before the play started.