that are persistent, debilitating

[5jj]

I have covered this above.

What you have said may be true of AmE, but it is not true of BrE. For many speakers, especially of BrE, simple agreement in such cases [of the sort you advocate] sounds unacceptably pedantic.
Huddleston and Pullum (2002.503), The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. (My emphasis added).

 

[jutfrank]

The rule of thumb for "a/the number of" construction is stated succinctly in "Do's, Don'ts & Maybes of English Usage" [1977] by Theodore Bernstein: "In general, 'a number" takes a plural verb and 'the number' a singular."

Well, that's just practical guidance for users, and it's not quite right. It isn't that 'a number of takes a plural verb', it's that the plural verb agreement comes not from the singular NP a number but from the plural NP that follows. The fact that the number of usually follows with a singular agreement is due to the fact that the verb relates to the singular NP the number. I.e., The number of people is growing means that it's the number that is growing, not the people.

As in the previous example, the verb that follows "a couple of" is determined by "a couple of" not by the noun "patients".

Again, that's not quite right. The agreement is determined fully by what the speaker means. If you want a general rule of thumb here, it's this: Speakers use singular verbs to agree with singular ideas and plural verbs to agree with plural ideas. By 'singular/plural ideas', I'm talking about the singularity/plurality of the mental objects in the speaker's mind at the moment of utterance.

 

[Andromeda]

What you have said may be true of AmE, but it is not true of BrE. For many speakers, especially of BrE, simple agreement in such cases [of the sort you advocate] sounds unacceptably pedantic.
Huddleston and Pullum (2002.503), The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. (My emphasis added).

Yet, in the same breath, the authors have acknowledged, "There can be no override in examples like.... The number of fatalities has risen..." [Footnote 74]

 

[5jj]

Yet, in the same breath, the authors have acknowledged, "There can be no override in examples like.... The number of fatalities has risen..." [Footnote 74]

As jutfrank has said more than once, the forms we use depend on the meaning. Fatalities have not risen. It's the number of fatalities that has risen.

 

[Andromeda]

Well, that's just practical guidance for users, and it's not quite right. It isn't that 'a number of takes a plural verb', it's that the plural verb agreement comes not from the singular NP a number but from the plural NP that follows. The fact that the number of usually follows with a singular agreement is due to the fact that the verb relates to the singular NP the number. I.e., The number of people is growing means that it's the number that is growing, not the people.

I may have to agree with you on that. "A number of" means "many"; therefore, it is plural. On the other hand, "the number of" refers to a mathematical or numerical figure; thus, it is singular. Some authoritative sources agree with the aforesaid view:

1. The New Penguin English Dictionary [2001] [pg 958] opines that "the phrase 'a number of' meaning 'some' or 'several' should be used with a verb in the plural: 'There are a number of things to discuss'... When 'number' means 'the overall quantity in 'the number of' it is used with a singular verb: 'The number of meningitis cases is increasing'."

2. Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary of Current English [1984] [pg 575]: "The number of books missing from the library is large; A number of books (=some books) are missing from the library."

3. Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English [1978] [pg 749]: "a number of means some".

4. Collins Cobuild English Usage [2002] [pg 451]: "A number of things or people means several things or people. You use a plural form of a verb after a number of.... When you talk about the number of people or things of particular kind, you are talking about an actual number. After the number of you use a singular form of a verb."

5. American style guide says that phrases such as a number of, a lot of, and a total of should be followed by plural verbs. The AMA Manual of Style [10th edition] [Sec 7.8.11] says, "The number is singular and a number of is plural"[3] (thus, the number of mosquitoes is increasing but a number of brands of mosquito repellent are available) and the same is true for the total of and a total of: 'the total was growing but a total of 28 volunteers have submitted applications.

6. Chicago style (16th ed) says the same thing at Section 5.9 "Mass noun followed by a prepositional phrase".

 

[Andromeda]

As jutfrank has said more than once, the forms we use depend on the meaning. Fatalities have not risen. It's the number of fatalities that has risen.

The operative word in the quotation is "override".

 

[5jj]

I may have to agree with you on that.

For this relief much thanks.

 

[5jj]

The operative word in the quotation is "override".

I don't see the point you are trying to make. You wrote earlier "the presence of "the" before words like "couple", "total", majority" and "number" denotes that it is singular; so we use a singular verb. ". This would mean that The number of fatalities have risen was correct. As H & P write, there can be no no [singular] override in examples like this. The verb needs to be have in BrE.

 

[probus]

Andromeda, kindly correct the information in your user profile before posting again.

 

[Andromeda]

Andromeda, kindly correct the information in your user profile before posting again.

What is it you would like me to "correct"?

 

[GoesStation]

What is it you would like me to "correct"?

Your profile says you're in England but your posts are from a Singaporean IP address.

 

[probus]

What is it you would like me to "correct"?

Don't be cute. You know perfectly well what part or parts of your profile information are untrue. Take a week off. If you choose to return after your week off, correct your information or face the consequences.

 

[tzfujimino]

I somehow thought Andromeda was American.
:?:

 

[5jj]

I somehow thought Andromeda was American.
:?:

I thought the same. I don't know whether this is because their profile at one time showed them to be American, or because they referred to an American style guide in defence of one of their responses.

 

[probus]

Can't you guys read? Andromeda's native language is English, and his home country and current residence are both England. ;-)

 

[GoesStation]

It's not impossible that Andromeda is using a VPN with a server in Singapore. There are many reasons to do so.

 

[probus]

His interest in rules and his lack of familiarity with the everyday meaning of intervention make me doubt that English is his native language. Also, his arrogance is typical of those who have achieved very high levels in English and attempted to fool us that they are native speakers. Anyway we shall see on Sunday.

 

[5jj]

Don't be cute. You know perfectly well what part or parts of your profile information are untrue. Take a week off. If you choose to return after your week off, correct your information or face the consequences.

His interest in rules and his lack of familiarity with the everyday meaning of intervention make me doubt that English is his native language. Also, his arrogance is typical of those who have achieved very high levels in English and attempted to fool us that they are native speakers. Anyway we shall see on Sunday.

Are you sure the public forums are the right place for his type of comment?

 

[probus]

It's a fair question. My feeling is that our members can, will and should assess the quality of the answers we provide. Truthful information about whether a teacher is a native speaker is therefore important. And as I recently said in a private forum, Usingenglish is more successful than its competitors in part because we provide better answers.

 

[5jj]

It's a fair question. My feeling is that our members can, will and should assess the quality of the answers we provide. Truthful information about whether a teacher is a native speaker is therefore important.

I agree.

My question was about the tone and content of your comments, particularly the second of those I quoted.