[Vocabulary] second-order? reasoning

[5jj]

"I think it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that one or two of the members of this forum might have an inkling of this."

I did not claim with a single word that it is beyond the bounds of possibility that one or two of the members of this forum might have an inkling of the diverse nature of irony.

Well, you may know about irony, but you do not always seem to be able to spot it;-).

Still, Ray seems to have brought the thread back on track, and answered your original question, so I'll take my leave.

 

[BobK]

...
The "order" issue is still not solved.

Csika

It's a metaphorical usage, based on this:

...d (1) : the number of times differentiation is applied successively <derivatives of higher order> (2) of a differential equation : the order of the derivative of highest order

The surface meaning of an utterance is of the first order. Derivatives of this are of higher orders.

It's sometimes wise not to dismiss helpful advice out of hand. An apology to Barb might be in order. :-|

b

 

[Csika]

Dear Fivejedjon,

"Well, you may know about irony, but you do not always seem to be able to spot it"

Yes, irony has the potential risk of misunderstanding. I know this is an English forum but let us talk about this issue in Hungarian. You may get tangled in a debate held not in your foreign language.

"Three native speakers, from both of the major dialect areas of English, all of them professional users of the language have tried to help with your question, and each time you have rejected their efforts in some way. I, also a native speaking professional user of the language, questioned one point you made, and you dismissed it.

None of us claims to be experts in irony, though we certainly know how the word and its derivatives are generally used. It may be that you will find answers to your liking on a forum specialising in irony rather than in using English."

Please do not make fuss about your lack of knowledge about irony. Most people think about irony in terms of 'folk theory'. It is not only a matter of 'professional language use' (as you may suggest). Linguists get deeper into the matter and see points 'folk theorists' may neglect. This is what science is for. Do not blame yourself for your seeing things differently/perhaps in a wrong way. It is not a shame.

Anyway, thanks for your contribution to this thread but Raymott seems to have got the point more academically than you did.

Thank you Raymott and others - I will get back with my comments soon.

Csika

 

[corum]

+++++++++++, Csika!

 

[~Mav~]

Anyway, I know that though most people do not think of irony in academic terms, they understand ironic speech. This is how things should be. You must not forget, however, that irony is an extremely complex semantic, pragmatic, neurolinguistic, psycholinguistic, neuroanatomical, neurobiological, etc. phenomenon - ALL dictionary definitions fail on irony

Dear Fivejedjon,
Please do not make fuss about your lack of knowledge about irony.
[...]
This is what science is for.

:shocked!: :shocked!: I can't help, but this reminds me of the famous sketch by Monty Python, "Ministry of Silly Walks. :mrgreen: (No copyright infringement is intended. The linked content is from the official channel of MP.)

I'm afraid that the Ministry of Silly Walks is no longer getting the kind of support what it needs. You see there's Defence, Social Security, Health, Housing, Education, Silly Walks ... they're all supposed to get the same. But last year, the Government spent less on the Ministry of Silly Walks than it did on National Defence! Now we get £348,000,000 a year, which is supposed to be spent on all our available products.

Obviously, they should spend even more money on research of irony.:up: :mrgreen:

Moderators, please. Corum is using swear words in Hungarian. Deserves a ban.

This is so miserable that it defies description.:-|

 

[5jj]

Moderators, please. Corum is using swear words in Hungarian. Deserves a ban.

Moderators, please. Corum and I have had serious disagreements in the past. However, this cry from Csika for the banning of Corum has brought me out of my self-imposed exile from this thread in defence of Corum Let those who speak Hungarian judge whether or not Corum's comments were justified in the circumstances.

 

[Pedroski]

Well I define 'irony' as 'ferrous'. That makes everything very simple!

 

[Tdol]

This page suggests that it is somewhat rude:
szótár.dicfor.com - szótár, fordító, program

I am going to remove the offending phrase, and, Corum, please don't use phrases like that- it is against forum rules and doesn't helped the flow of a discussion.

However, I would also state that Csika's behaviour in this thread is nothing to write home about. It's unclear whether you're actually trying to have a discussion or trying to goad people.

I am closing the thread because it's just causing friction.