pronunciations of O and I

[Charlie Bernstein]

I'll take NewYorkian.

I'll take Manhattian.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

A, E, I, O, U: vowel letters;
W: consonant letter, sometimes a semivowel letter;
Y : consonant letter, sometimes a semivowel letter, sometimes a vowel letter.

As we say in New Yorkian: Oy!

I see what you mean. W does behave something like a vowel. Any word with a W could be spelled with vowels instead. West could be spelled oest.

But the important thing is how the letter is used in the architecture of the word. Just as all houses require entrances, all syllables require vowels. Since a W cannot play that role, it's not a vowel.

There are no semi-vowels. Again, a Y is always either a vowel (style) or a consonant (yes). It is never partly one and partly the other. (Personally, I think it's easier to just call Y a full-time vowel, but I don't get a vote.)

So when you think of what makes a letter a vowel, don't think about pronunciation. Think about whether it's part of the structure of the syllable.

It's an arbitrary rule, but it works.

 

[TaiwanPofLee]

As we say in New Yorkian: Oy!

I see what you mean. W does behave something like a vowel. Any word with a W could be spelled with vowels instead. West could be spelled oest.

But the important thing is how the letter is used in the architecture of the word. Just as all houses require entrances, all syllables require vowels. Since a W cannot play that role, it's not a vowel.

There are no semi-vowels. Again, a Y is always either a vowel (style) or a consonant (yes). It is never partly one and partly the other. (Personally, I think it's easier to just call Y a full-time vowel, but I don't get a vote.)

So when you think of what makes a letter a vowel, don't think about pronunciation. Think about whether it's part of the structure of the syllable.

It's an arbitrary rule, but it works.

Nice to have your response, Charlie.

You said the word serve is pronounced as /srv/. Then, which letter of 'serve' is a vowel?

 

[MikeNewYork]

The difference between W and Y is Y can a have a vowel sound all by itself; W does not.

 

[TaiwanPofLee]

The difference between W and Y is Y can a have a vowel sound all by itself; W does not.

Yes, indeed!

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Nice to have your response, Charlie.

You said the word serve is pronounced as /srv/. Then, which letter of 'serve' is a vowel?

Not S, R, or V!

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

The difference between W and Y is Y can a have a vowel sound all by itself; W does not.

Interesting. Thanks!

I think of the pure, unattached W sound as oooo (tongue back and lips making a Lifesaver) and the pure, unattached Y sound as eeee (tongue up and lips smiling).

West: Oooo-est.
Yarn: Eeee-arn.

But you might hear them differently, which is what makes all this the wide, wild world of English!

I'll bow out now. Five pages on O and I is enough for me!

 

[MikeNewYork]

In your first example, W has no vowel sound. In your second example Y is a consonant. Y is a vowel in 'sky" and "cry".

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

In your first example, W has no vowel sound. In your second example Y is a consonant. Y is a vowel in 'sky" and "cry".

And bicycle and lady, which we could never spell bicwcle and ladw.

Good points. Got that, Taiwan?

 

[TaiwanPofLee]

And bicycle and lady, which we could never spell bicwcle and ladw.

Good points. Got that, Taiwan?

I quote the following from Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semivowel

"In phonetics and phonology, a semivowel or glide is a sound that is phonetically similar to a vowel sound but functions as the syllableboundary rather than as the nucleus of a syllable.[SUP][1][/SUP] In English, the consonants y and w in yes and west are semivowels, written /j w/ in IPA. They correspond to the vowels /iː uː/, written ee and oo in seen andmoon."

 

[MikeNewYork]

The pronunciations of the consonants in "yes" and "west" are no more semivowels than the P in "pest" or the L in "less". IPA symbols don't determine pronunciations; pronunciations should determine IPA symbols,

 

[TaiwanPofLee]

definition of a semivowel

UK: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/semivowel
USA: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Semivowels

 

[MikeNewYork]

Well, evidently there is support for your position, but I still find it odd. And I don't see how it improves the understanding or learning of English.

 

[TaiwanPofLee]

Well, evidently there is support for your position, but I still find it odd. And I don't see how it improves the understanding or learning of English.

Such scholarly and sophiscated analysis helps some students of English with their understanding and learning of the English pronunciation. (Few people can, and need to, understand Einstein's theory of relativity.)
This thread of mine is, in the first place, concerned with phonemes of the pronunciations of the names of letters O and I.

 

[MikeNewYork]

So how did we end up with W?

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

So how did we end up with W?

In this thread? I don't know. Taiwan brought it up.

In the alphabet? Yeah, how did we? Hold on a sec - I'll look it up....

Well, that was easy!: History of W

 

[SoothingDave]

So how did we end up with W?

And why isn't it called "double v"?

 

[Raymott]

And why isn't it called "double v"?

Many Spanish call it "doble ve".
http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/111848/w-is-it-doble-u-or-doble-v-

 

[Roman55]

It's "double vé" in French, too.

 

[TaiwanPofLee]

We have long vowel sounds in English and short vowel sounds. One has to learn the difference. That is not a simple process.

It's easy for students of English in Taiwan who use English dictionaries with phonetic symbols. And even more so if their teachers give them a comprehensive list of words comparing the different sounds of [u:] and .