I regret + ing and + to infinitive

[Humble]

Funny,
That's just where I looked 2 or 3 months ago!

 

[BobK]

I ...but nobody seems to have mentioned that the use of the semi-modal "have to" in the gerund form is not an indicator of the past tense; in fact, its use allows the speaker to communicate regret in the present because it is an expression of regret of the necessity of a present or future act. Technically, it is in the past in that the sense of necessity has been already established but the action that follows could be in progress or about to happen.
...

:up: - this reminds me of a book I was working on many years ago. The author said he had heard someone say 'it's a question of haffing to'. The /v/ at the end of "have" in the semi-modal case always assimilates to the unvoiced /t/ of "to", so that in effect there are two verbs (ignoring the lexical one denoting possession): to /hæv/ (auxiliary) and to /hæf tə/ . The speaker in this case ("haffing") had inflected /hæf tə/ as /hæfiŋ tə/.

b

 

[queenbu]

Tha part about the semi-modal is clear.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree that "having left" is acceptable either. Without the modal meaning, regret + gerund does carry a past meaning and therefore the use of "having" (which can be a tense marker, especially in reduced adverb clauses) is redundant.

I understand that it's not acceptable but I don't understand why (or why not?) When you say that regret+gerund carries a past meaning do you mean that it's understood, that if you regret something it must mean that you have already done it?
regret: to feel sorry about a situation, especially something that you wish you had not done. I still think that 'I regret leaving' is ambiguous when written on its own. It could be 'I regret leaving now just when there's the best part of the film' in the sense 'I'm sorry to leave now....'

 

[fiona bramble]

Tha part about the semi-modal is clear.

I understand that it's not acceptable but I don't understand why (or why not?) When you say that regret+gerund carries a past meaning do you mean that it's understood, that if you regret something it must mean that you have already done it?
regret: to feel sorry about a situation, especially something that you wish you had not done. I still think that 'I regret leaving' is ambiguous when written on its own. It could be 'I regret leaving now just when there's the best part of the film' in the sense 'I'm sorry to leave now....'

Hi Everybody,
We've clearly left the student arena and gone into the grammar geek world:-D Of course, a full-fledged geek myself, I've been thinking about this (and bugging my colleagues!) and realize that we do, in fact, use having + -ing to mark the past in gerund object structures. (it seem to act like the past perfect does in that it emphasizes a "past past" ...I think you know what I mean;-) ..Humble's examples demonstrate this)
I think some of the examples sounded awkward ("I regret having left school at 14") , so I made the leap that it doesn't work, but yes, context is relevant. I even wonder if some verbs (like single action verbs) are not typically used with "having"; for example "I regret having closed the door"...that seems odd to me. This is why "I regret having left my umbrella" made me cringe.
I'm still not sure that the modal message is clear QueenBu..? "I regret leaving now" is weird, but with the modal introducing necessity, I think it's fine: "I regret having to leave now". I'm assuming this modal creates a special case.
Thanks too for the Longman reference but e) and f) are NOT gerund objects, they are reduced adverb clauses, the use of "having" in which I initially used as an example as creating confusion in gerund object structures because it is a tense marker in reduced adverb clauses. Those examples should not be used there. Gerunds function as subjects and objects, not subordinate clauses!
Thanks for all the brain matter here...food for thought:-D
Fiona

 

[queenbu]

I'm still not sure that the modal message is clear QueenBu..?

Why do you doubt it, fiona? Why else would I have changed from 'I regret having to leave' to ' I regret leaving'?

 

[BobK]

Why do you doubt it, fiona? Why else would I have changed from 'I regret having to leave' to ' I regret leaving'?

Excuse me for butting in. ;-)

I'm not sure I understand this question; but I don't agree with your earlier point about 'I regret leaving' being ambiguous. For me it's not. If I'm apologizing for leaving somewhere early, I use the modal. For me, 'I regret leaving early' has only one meaning - 'I left early, and I'm sorry that I did'.

If the first of these two (the apology) is what Fiona had in mind, that would explain her preference for the modal; 'I regret leaving' isn't an apology, it's a statement about a present feeling about a past event.

b

 

[queenbu]

but I don't agree with your earlier point about 'I regret leaving' being ambiguous. For me it's not. If I'm apologizing for leaving somewhere early, I use the modal. For me, 'I regret leaving early' has only one meaning - 'I left early, and I'm sorry that I did'.

I don't agree but I accept that I'm wrong. After all, you are the native speakers.

Re first part, I just wondered why Fiona doubted my having understood the semi-modal thing. When I don't understand something I usually just say so.

Thanks anyway.

 

[fiona bramble]

I don't agree but I accept that I'm wrong. After all, you are the native speakers.

Re first part, I just wondered why Fiona doubted my having understood the semi-modal thing. When I don't understand something I usually just say so.

Thanks anyway.

Whoa, sorry if I missed this! I've had a serious stomach flu & am just now on my feet. I certainly did NOT mean to slight you, Queenbu, & native speakers don't always have the answers! You did say you understood the modal aspect but your following questions seem to ignore that importance of the modal in our overall discussion.
BobK is exactly right and the only reason "I regret having to leave" is o.k. , in my mind, when talking about a present or future situation is because "having to" , that is, the feeling of necessity has already occurred and is therefore in the past. "Leave" is the second (present or future) action but it is irrelevant because it does not directly follow "regret".
Sorry if I stepped on any toes...cyber-talk is fraught with danger:-D

 

[queenbu]

Hello everyone-seems as if you're all on-line. I'm sorry about your stomch flu,Fiona.
Seems I got lost somewhere along the thread.
Let me recap a bit.
Let's leave the semi modal part. That's clear. ;-)
It's the 'regret leaving' amd regret having left' part that's not clear.
When I read Humble's examples using the verb 'deny', I said to myself -'here's another one who thinks exactly like I do'.

...and realize that we do, in fact, use having + -ing to mark the past in gerund object structures. (it seem to act like the past perfect does in that it emphasizes a "past past" ...I think you know what I mean ..Humble's examples demonstrate this)

Does the above mean that Humble's examples were correct? Does 'regret' act like 'deny'? Is the part in red a typo?
What I conclude is that you can't say 'I regret having left',ok?
Sorry about the confusion!

 

[fiona bramble]

Hello everyone-seems as if you're all on-line. I'm sorry about your stomch flu,Fiona.
Seems I got lost somewhere along the thread.
Let me recap a bit.
Let's leave the semi modal part. That's clear. ;-)
It's the 'regret leaving' amd regret having left' part that's not clear.
When I read Humble's examples using the verb 'deny', I said to myself -'here's another one who thinks exactly like I do'.



Does the above mean that Humble's examples were correct? Does 'regret' act like 'deny'? Is the part in red a typo?
What I conclude is that you can't say 'I regret having left',ok?
Sorry about the confusion!

Hi again,
Sorry, I had to find the example from Humble that changed my mind about a "perfect gerund", which was something like "I denied having visited her"; with the use of "having" to clearly denote past time. I think things did get mixed up here a bit. We answered the original question with the modal issue and then pursued the having +ing thread...so:
1. No, the red part is not a typo, but I suspect the use of "having + -ing" is specific to some verbs (main verb and gerund object).
2. Deny is not the same as "regret" in that it can only take a gerund, plus it doesn't carry an inherent sense of the past as "regret + -ing" does, so perhaps that is why a "perfect gerund" sounds o.k. with "deny"; there is no sense of redundancy.
3. My feeling on "I regret having left" is that it is redundant (there is something odd about "left" too but I can't put my finger on it!) and unlikely to be uttered by a native speaker.

O.k.?? Are we all friends again? By the way, eight of our friends at our weekend St. Patrick's party got the stomach virus, so you probably don't want to be included in that group!

 

[BobK]

'My feeling on "I regret having left" is that it is redundant ...' And my feeling is that it usually is, but might be able in some cases to bear a meaning differing from "I regret leaving"; whatever this meaning may be, though, I can't put my finger on it at the moment. I shall think about it....



b

 

[queenbu]

O.k.?? Are we all friends again?

I never thought otherwise!:-D

I can't put my finger on it at the moment. I shall think about it....

My feeling on "I regret having left" is that it is redundant (there is something odd about "left" too but I can't put my finger on it!) and unlikely to be uttered by a native speaker.

In another thread

I agree with you, though, there's something rather fishy about c] 'has cooked'. (I don't know what it is at the moment, but I will figure it out. Your point of view is beginning to sway me in another direction. That can wait. It's almost 1:00 a.m. here. Yawn.)

:roll: Is there something wrong with me?

 

[BobK]

I never thought otherwise!:-D
In another thread
:roll: Is there something wrong with me?

Of course not, queenbu. It's just that there seems to be a very subtle point here that no one here can be sure of. We're still trying though.... :-?:-D If several linguistically sophisticated native speakers find it difficult, it's no wonder that a language learner has trouble.

b

 

[BobK]

... We're still trying though.... :-?:-D If several linguistically sophisticated native speakers find it difficult, it's no wonder that a language learner has trouble.

b

On re-reading this, I thought the phrase 'linguistically sophisticated' might seem a bit self-important. Of course people don't need to be 'linguistically sophisticated' in order to have valid native speaker intuitions; my point in using that phrase is that we're practised in trying to describe and communicate those intuitions.

Anyway, mindful of the 'still trying' promise, I've done the attached doodles. I'm not sure I agree with them, but I think they're quite fun anyway ;-) [Click on the thumbnails.]

b

PS - These uploads lose a lot of definition in the uploads. You can see them in all their glory at
Regret Leaving
and
Regret Having Left

 

[queenbu]

On re-reading this, I thought the phrase 'linguistically sophisticated' might seem a bit self-important. Of course people don't need to be 'linguistically sophisticated' in order to have valid native speaker intuitions; my point in using that phrase is that we're practised in trying to describe and communicate those intuitions.
Anyway, mindful of the 'still trying' promise, I've done the attached doodles. I'm not sure I agree with them, but I think they're quite fun anyway ;-) [Click on the thumbnails.]
b
PS - These uploads lose a lot of definition in the uploads. You can see them in all their glory at
Regret Leaving
and
Regret Having Left

Hello BobK
Clicking on the thumbnails and clicking on the links give me the same thing. They are very well done, I must say.

I'm not sure I agree with them

I'm sure you don't because that's the way I see it, isn't it? I mean, what you're trying to do is to find out what's wrong with it. I can't really understand why you've done those doodles if they go against what you think.Have I missed something?:-?

 

[fiona bramble]

Ha! Very cute:-D
I just said to my mother-in-law not five minutes ago "He will hate having turned 2" , referring to my soon-to-be 2 year old's coming of age and the potty training that we will force upon him when he does.
Just throwing it in there!

 

[queenbu]

:-d

Edit:Thought I'd see the emoticon!

 

[BobK]

Hello BobK
Clicking on the thumbnails and clicking on the links give me the same thing. They are very well done, I must say.

Silly me. Try this.

I'm sure you don't because that's the way I see it, isn't it? I mean, what you're trying to do is to find out what's wrong with it. I can't really understand why you've done those doodles if they go against what you think.Have I missed something?:-?

No, you haven't. I just wanted to represent a position in this form, so that I can tweak things with Visio (my graphics tool) until it fits with what I think. ;-)

b

 

[queenbu]

Silly me. Try this.

The only difference is that I get them on the same page but never mind, I always get them through very clearly!

so that I can tweak things with Visio (my graphics tool) until it fits with what I think.

OK-keep me informed, please.:up: