Yes, I've read that book once, it's so boring, I didn't even get to its middle.

[BestBuddy]

Recently, I've learnt that we can use verbs in 'atelic' sense in English.

What lies at the heart of your confusion is not really anything to do with past simple, or with grammar at all, but rather with the semantics of the verb read.

You can make a distinction between two different senses of the verb read: telic and atelic. When the verb is telic, you get the sense of completion that you're talking about. A test for whether the verb is telic is whether you can apply certain time frames to it. Imagine that a speaker wants to use the verb read in the sentence Alex read the book to mean 'all of the book' (i.e., in a telic sense). In this case, only the first of the two time frames in the sentence pair below makes sense:

Alex read the book in an hour.
Alex read the book for a hour.

In the atelic sense, the verb read expresses only the action of casting eyes across text, and as such can have duration. In this sense, one can indeed read a book without finishing it, and only the second sentence below makes sense:

Alex read the book in an hour.
Alex read the book for a hour.

I didn't know that, I'm very grateful to the person who wrote this! It really makes so much sense!
But, I'd like to clarify one thing. Are the sentences below correct in 'atelic' sense?

1. "Have you already written the book today?" "Yes, I have" (It's 20% finished now)
2. "Have you ever drawn a picture?" "Yes, I have" (I stopped drawing the picture at half way)

 

[jutfrank]

Your sentences don't make a lot of sense to express what you mean to say, I'm afraid, so they don't serve as very good examples.

What exactly are you trying to do here? Find clear examples of write and draw used in an atelic sense? Here:

A: What did you do last night?
B: I wrote my assignment for an hour.

Be aware that you can't use all action verbs in both telic and atelic senses.

Regarding your example 2:

A: Have you ever drawn a picture?
B: Yes, I have.

This exchange would naturally be interpreted in a strictly telic way. If the speaker really were just asking whether the listener has engaged in the atelic activity of drawing (a fairly odd thing to ask), it would be useful to omit the verb's direct object: Have you ever drawn? This omission removes the telicity entirely.

 

[BestBuddy]

Also, you're complicating things somewhat by introducing the perfect aspect into the picture.

This is what I'm trying to understand.

As 5jj advises, stick to the past simple only in this thread please, otherwise things will get messy very easily.

It's a new thread.

I heard that with unfinished time periods, we can use the perfect aspect.

1. How many cups of coffee have you drunk this morning? (It's still morning)
2. How many cups of coffee did you drink this morning? (It's not morning anymore)

The person wanted to know whether the man he's talking to wrote/read his book today (in atelic sense). The time period isn't over, it's still today.

• "Have you already written the book today?" "Yes, I have"
• "Have you already read the book today?" "Yes, I have"

In the atelic sense, the verb read expresses only the action of casting eyes across text, and as such can have duration. In this sense, one can indeed read a book without finishing it

The logic is very simple. Please, think about what I mean before answering.

 

[jutfrank]

Sorry, I didn't realise this was a new thread. My post #2 belongs in the other thread.

 

[jutfrank]

I heard that with unfinished time periods, we can use the perfect aspect.

1. How many cups of coffee have you drunk this morning? (It's still morning)
2. How many cups of coffee did you drink this morning? (It's not morning anymore)

That's right, yes.

The person wanted to know whether the man he's talking to wrote/read his book today (in atelic sense). The time period isn't over, it's still today.

• "Have you already written the book today?" "Yes, I have"
• "Have you already read the book today?" "Yes, I have"

Yes, I understand what you mean. That's better. Yes, you could reasonably understand the use of read in an atelic sense there.

 

[BestBuddy]

Yes, I understand what you mean. That's better. Yes, you could reasonably understand the use of read in an atelic sense there.

Would those sentences be understood that the person being asked has finished the books or not necessarily?

 

[jutfrank]

Both interpretations are possible in this context.

Interpretation of any utterance comes partly from our expectations about how people usually behave. It isn't completely absurd that a person could finish writing or reading a whole book in the space of one day, but it isn't something we'd normally expect a person to do, especially with writing. It is easier to imagine that the person being questioned is working on writing a book over a duration of weeks, and that the questioner is merely asking whether this particular day's session of writing has been completed.

Let me advise you not to confuse the ideas of completion of the book with the completion of the action. These are different things. The present perfect aspect concerns the latter only.

 

[BestBuddy]

Let me advise you not to confuse the ideas of completion of the book with the completion of the action. These are different things. The present perfect aspect concerns the latter only.

Great advice! I wish somebody had told me about it when I was starting learing English. I wouldn't have been hating the English aspects for all these years. I should have joined this forum much earlier!

It's just the situation that forced me to think about it.
Several days ago, I asked my son to read every day a book that he has to complete.
Every day since, having come back home from work, I wonder if he does that.
So I ask him, "Have you already read the book today?" in my native language, and then I tried to translate it in my head in English with saving the meaning.

 

[5jj]

Several days ago, I asked my son to read every day a book that he has to complete.

Do you mean that he has to start and finish a book every day?

 

[BestBuddy]

do you mean that he has to start and finish a book every day?

Let me answer you, 5jj, with this.

Let me advise you not to confuse the ideas of completion of the book with the completion of the action. These are different things. The present perfect aspect concerns the latter only.

 

[5jj]

That's one way of telling me you don't want me to spend any more time on your questions, I suppose.

 

[jutfrank]

5jj has asked a very reasonable clarification question, with the good intention of helping you understand this difficult area. You'll benefit greatly from his expertise.

 

[BestBuddy]

That's one way of telling me you don't want me to spend any more time on your questions, I suppose.

5jj has asked a very reasonable clarification question, with the good intention of helping you understand this difficult area. You'll benefit greatly from his expertise.

I didn't mean to hurt anybody at all! I wrote that with good intentions to answer, just with not my words, that's it. What's so bad about my answer? I don't know.

 

[jutfrank]

It came across as a little rude. If there has been a misunderstanding, don't worry about it.

Welcome to the forum, BestBuddy. We look forward to any further questions you may have.

 

[Tarheel]

Several days ago, I asked my son to read every day a book that he has to complete.

That seems to say he has to finish the book every day.

 

[Tarheel]

So I ask him, "Have you already read the book today?" in my native language, and then I tried to translate it in my head in English with saving the meaning.

I don't know if that makes sense in your native language, but if you asked me that question I would wonder what you meant.

 

[BestBuddy]

Do you mean that he has to start and finish a book every day?

I could have told him, "Read this book every day for a while to complete it by..." instead of

Several days ago, I asked my son to read every day a book that he has to complete.

but I didn't want to get into redundant details since the simple aspect doesn't necessarily mean completion of the object as here: "Alex read a book while Amy watched TV."

Let me advise you not to confuse the ideas of completion of the book with the completion of the action. These are different things. The present perfect aspect concerns the latter only.

Am I wrong somewhere? If I am, please, correct me.

 

[BestBuddy]

I don't know if that makes sense in your native language, but if you asked me that question I would wonder what you meant.

In my language and Russian (the grammar of both are almost the same), we have two different kinds of verbs that help us show the completion of the object with finished time periods.

Я читал книгу вчера. - I read the book yesterday. (not necessarily the whole, maybe only a part of it)
Я прочитал книгу вчера. - I read the book yesterday. (exactly the whole book)

Я читал книгу вчера 20 минут. - I read the book yesterday for 20 minutes.
Я прочитал книгу вчера за 20 минут. - I read the book yesterday in 20 minutes.

 

[Tarheel]

@BestBuddy Do you understand what I meant by my comment?

 

[BestBuddy]

@BestBuddy Do you understand what I meant by my comment?

I thought that I did. But now since you asked that I'm not sure.