Who did Tom say that he saw?

[kadioguy]

[My sentences]

1. Tom said that he saw John yesterday.
--> 2. Who did Tom say that he saw?

3. Tom said that John saw him yesterday.
--> 4. Who did Tom say that saw him?

Question:
a. Who did Tom say that he saw?
b. Who did Tom say that saw him?
--
I wouldn’t use ‘that’ in both. However, are they grammatically correct as they are?

 

[Barque]

The first's grammatical with or without "that". I'd drop "that" too.

The second works only without "that".

(I assume you're asking about questions a and b and not sentences 1 and 3.)

 

[Barque]

Note that, strictly, it should be "Whom" in the first question. Whom did Tom say that he saw? But of course most people use "Who" instead these days.

 

[Tarheel]

See below.

Tom: I saw John yesterday.
Mary: Who did you see?
Tom: John.

O

 

[kadioguy]

The second works only without "that".

b. Who did Tom say that saw him?

I'd say the 'that' can be very likely to mislead the reader about it being the subject of 'saw', thus inappropriate. However, I suppose that it can be argued that it is not grammatically incorrect.

 

[5jj]

I suppose that it can be argued that it is not grammatically incorrect.

No.

 

[kadioguy]

No.

It can be used to introduce a clause, can't it?

[Edit: Fixed an error. Thanks, Tarheel (in #27).]

 

[Barque]

Not just any clause.

I suppose that it can be argued that it is not grammatically incorrect.

It's wrong.

 

[kadioguy]

Not just any clause.

It's wrong.

I suspect if there is a grammar point about this. To me, 'inappropriate' and 'wrong' are different.

 

[Barque]

Who did Tom say saw him? = Who [according to Tom] saw Tom?

Do you see why there's no place for "that"?

 

[5jj]

I suspect if there is a grammar point about this.

What does that mean?

To me, 'inappropriate' and 'wrong' are different.

If you wish. Who did Tom say that saw him? is wrong.

 

[kadioguy]

Who did Tom say saw him? = Who [according to Tom] saw Tom?

Do you see why there's no place for "that"?

Aonther way to see it is this:

Tom said that John saw him yesterday.
--> Who did Tom say that saw him?

In this case there is a place for 'that'.

what does that mean?

I mean, is there a grammatical rule saying that 'that' can't be used that way?

If you wish. Who did Tom say that saw him? is wrong.

Thank you for being that clear.

 

[Barque]

In this case there is a place for 'that'.

I disagree. I'm not a grammarian and I can't explain in detail. It just doesn't sound correct.

 

[5jj]

kadioguy,

your sentence is gramallically unacceptable, wrong, incorrect. Move on.

 

[jutfrank]

b. Who did Tom say that saw him?

I'd say the 'that' can be very likely to mislead the reader about it being the subject of 'saw', thus inappropriate. However, I suppose that it can be argued that it is not grammatically incorrect.

Right—it isn't ungrammatical. I can't see why other members seem to feel that it is. It may be unnatural, but there's nothing ungrammatical about it as far as I can see.

@Lycidas, what's your view on this?

 

[5jj]

Lycidas is no longer a member of the forum.

 

[5jj]

Right—it isn't ungrammatical. I can't see why other members seem to feel that it is. It may be unnatural, but there's nothing ungrammatical about it as far as I can see.

What is the andecedent of 'that'.

 

[jutfrank]

What is the andecedent of 'that'.

Who did Tom say (that) saw him?
Tom said (that) Bob saw him.

Is that not right?

Lycidas is no longer a member of the forum.

What happened?

 

[Barque]

Who did Tom say (that) saw him?
Tom said (that) Bob saw him.

Is that not right?

This is probably the first time I'm disagreeing with you.

I can't explain why I'm convinced it's incorrect. It just doesn't sound right.

Is it something you'd say?
Who did Tom say saw him?
Or
Who did Tom say that saw him?

 

[5jj]

What happened?

It's private.