Until now, I've/I'd never eaten sushi

[EngLearner]

John has never tried sushi before, so he goes to a Japanese restaurant with his friends and orders some. A minute after finishing his sushi meal, he posts a story on Instagram: a picture of the sushi he ordered, accompanied by the following text:

I'm at a Japanese restaurant with my friends. Until now, I've/I'd never eaten sushi, but I've just had a really delicious sushi meal.

I made up the scenario and wrote the above sentence. In this context and with the words "until now", would you use the present perfect "I've never eaten" or the past perfect "I'd never eaten"?

 

[jutfrank]

He's there at the restaurant and trying sushi now. He's talking about the present.

 

[EngLearner]

I considered using the past perfect because it's possible to look at the situation from the perspective that he's there at the restaurant at the moment, but the statement "I've never eaten sushi" is no longer true at the time of speaking because he has now eaten sushi: he finished his sushi meal a minute ago. Before that meal, he had never tried sushi.

 

[jutfrank]

the statement "I've never eaten sushi" is no longer true at the time of speaking

He says until now, so it is true.

The whole affair is now. Being at the restaurant, eating the sushi, posting a story—it's all present, not past.

 

[emsr2d2]

I have a slightly different opinion from jutfrank. If I was in the restaurant either before my food arrived or I was in the middle of my meal, I'd say "I've never had sushi before". I wouldn't use "Until" or "now" anywhere because the use of the present perfect makes it clear I'm talking about my life up to this point.
If I'd finished my meal but was still in the restaurant, I'd say "Until tonight, I'd never had sushi before".

 

[jutfrank]

I have a slightly different opinion from jutfrank.

I don't think our opinions differ anywhere.

If I was in the restaurant either before my food arrived or I was in the middle of my meal, I'd say "I've never had sushi before".

Yes, me too. The word 'before' there means 'before now'. Even if the dish has yet to arrive at the table, you're still having it 'now'. The whole situation is present, encompassing actions that either have been or have still to be, realised. The notion of the psychological now encompasses past and future actions.

 

[EngLearner]

Can one say one minute after finishing one's sushi meal:

I'm at a Japanese restaurant with my friends. Until tonight, I'd never had sushi before, but I've just enjoyed a delicious sushi meal.

Is it possible to omit "before", like this:

I'm at a Japanese restaurant with my friends. Until tonight, I'd never had sushi, but I've just enjoyed a delicious sushi meal.

 

[tedmc]

Can one say one minute after finishing one's sushi meal:

I'm at a Japanese restaurant with my friends. Until tonight, I'd never had sushi before, but I've just enjoyed a delicious sushi meal.

Is it possible to omit "before", like this:

I'm at a Japanese restaurant with my friends. Until tonight, I'd never had sushi, but I've just enjoyed a delicious sushi meal.

Yes, "before" is optional; in fact it is redundant.

 

[jutfrank]

Can one say one minute after finishing one's sushi meal:

I'm at a Japanese restaurant with my friends. Until tonight, I'd never had sushi before, but I've just enjoyed a delicious sushi meal.

Yes, but what's the point of asking whether one 'can' say this? How does this question help? Don't you want to know whether you should say it?

The past tense shows that the time phrase 'tonight' is a point in past time, not present. Why would you think of it like that?

Is it possible to omit "before", like this:

I'm at a Japanese restaurant with my friends. Until tonight, I'd never had sushi, but I've just enjoyed a delicious sushi meal.

That makes no difference to the meaning. The idea of 'before' is implicit in the word 'until'.

 

[jutfrank]

It appears you're struggling to understand the difference between present and past experiences. Look:

Talking to a friend: I went to that new Japanese place last weekend. I'd never tried sushi before.

This person is talking about a past experience he had. He uses past tenses with past time phrases.

Posting on social media:

I'm at the new Japanese restaurant on East Street. I've never tried sushi before.

This person is talking about a present experience. From the context, we don't know if he has finished the sushi, or is in the middle of eating it, or is still waiting for it to arrive. What matters is that the experience is present. He use present tenses.

 

[EngLearner]

I understand your point, jutfrank. According to your logic, if the speaker has finished their sushi meal in the present, they should use the present perfect when talking about their experience of never having eaten sushi before. That is, if they're still at the restaurant at the time of speaking, that counts as present time, regardless of whether they finished their sushi meal just a minute ago or twenty minutes ago, and they would say:

I'm at the new Japanese restaurant on East Street. I've never tried sushi before, but I've just had a big sushi set with my friends. It was really delicious.

The past tense shows that the time phrase 'tonight' is a point in past time, not present. Why would you think of it like that?

I'm thinking of "tonight" as the current time. The reference point for the past perfect within this present context is the beginning of this evening, which is in the past relative to now. I see it as: "Before I came to the restaurant tonight, I had never had sushi, but now that I'm here at the restaurant, I have." I'm trying to analyze this from the perspective of emsr2d2 who said:

If I'd finished my meal but was still in the restaurant, I'd say "Until tonight, I'd never had sushi before".

If we're considering "tonight" as the current time, which is "now" (and we are because, in emsr2d2's example, the speaker is there now, tonight), then "until tonight" and "until now" describe the same timeframe, and then both phrases mean everything leading up to the current time. And if "before" can be omitted (because the idea of "before" is implicit in the word "until"), then both "Until tonight, I'd never had sushi." and "Until now, I'd never had sushi." mean the same thing if the speaker is still in the restaurant after finishing their meal. If that is correct from emsr2d2's viewpoint, then this should also be correct in the same context (the way I wrote it in post #1):

I'm at the new Japanese restaurant on East Street. Until tonight/now, I'd never tried sushi, but I've just had a big sushi set with my friends. It was really delicious.

I have a slightly different opinion from jutfrank.

I don't think our opinions differ anywhere.

It appears that your and emsr2d2's opinions do differ on this point, and that's confusing for me as a learner. I've come across a lot of examples where, under the same circumstances, some native speakers prefer the past perfect while others prefer the present perfect. Here's one such example (this link), in which I'm sure you would advise against using "had":

Have/had you ever eaten sushi?

If she is currently eating sushi then "Have you" would be an odd question (since the answer is obviously "Yes"), so "Had you ..." would be better.

Here, in this example, she hasn't even finished eating her meal.

 

[emsr2d2]

I think that's the only point on which we differ. As far as I'm concerned, as soon as the last mouthful of sushi has been swallowed, the past perfect is the more appropriate tense.

Still eating - I've never eaten sushi before (before now)
Finished eating - I'd never eaten sushi before (before the meal I just finished eating)

 

[jutfrank]

I'm thinking of "tonight" as the current time.

No, you're not. If you are, the past perfect is wrong, because you can't use a past tense with a present time phrase.

The reference point for the past perfect within this present context is the beginning of this evening, which is in the past relative to now.

If you use the past perfect, the reference point is the time when you ate the sushi, which is in the past. That is to say that 'tonight' is past, not present.

If you use the present perfect, the reference point is in the present and the time phrase 'tonight' is present, not past. It's quite simple.

 

[jutfrank]

Still eating - I've never eaten sushi before (before now)

Yes. Only the present tense works here. You can't use 'had' in that sentence, as I think EngLearner is suggesting.

Finished eating - I'd never eaten sushi before (before the meal I just finished eating)

The context we're considering is posting on social media, where the scope of 'now' is generally a bit wider, so the present tense is as or more likely here, I think, especially if accompanied by a photo of uneaten or half-eaten sushi. You can think of Instagram posts as a kind of news story, and news often stays present for days on end.