unreal time -- tense shift

[CarloSsS]

Is it all right to shift tenses with unreal time structure combined with as/if as though?

Direct speech:
Tom, you look as if you were ill." (This means that although he looks ill, he is not).

Indirect speech:
"When I saw Tom, he looked as if he was ill." (This is what I would use normally).
"When I saw Tom, as if he had been ill." (This is what I would use if I wanted to suggest that he might have been ill sometimes in the (recent) past before I saw him).

Is my reasoning correct?

 

[charliedeut]

Is it all right to shift tenses with unreal time structure combined with as/if as though?

Direct speech:
Tom, you look [as if you were] ill." (This means that although he looks ill, he is not).

Indirect speech:
"When I saw Tom, he looked as if he was ill." (This is what I would use normally).
"When I saw Tom, as if he had been ill." (This is what I would use if I wanted to suggest that he might have been ill sometimes in the (recent) past before I saw him).

Is my reasoning correct?

Hi,

I have marked in red what I would drop in direct speech; it sounds more natural (to me) without it.

Unsure about the second part, though

Greetings,

charliedeut

 

[5jj]

I think we are more likely to say, "You look as if you are ill". There is no need to distance the verb in reality - the appearance of illnesss is real.

 

[5jj]

I have marked in red what I would drop in direct speech; it sounds more natural (to me) without it.

"You look ill" is fine - but so is "You look as if you are ill".

 

[charliedeut]

"You look ill" is fine - but so is "You look as if you are ill".

charliedeut

 

[CarloSsS]

I see that the example with looking ill is not the best one. What about these? Is it all right if I shift the tense in the subordinate clause?

Direct speech:
"She acts as if she didn't know him." (But she knows him)

Indirect speech:
1. She acted as if she didn't know him. (This is what I would say if I were to report the direct speech).
2. She acted as if she hadn't known him. (IMO, this means something different).

 

[bhaisahab]

I see that the example with looking ill is not the best one. What about these? Is it all right if I shift the tense in the subordinate clause?

Direct speech:
"She acts as if she didn't know him." (But she knows him)

Indirect speech:
1. She acted as if she didn't know him. (This is what I would say if I were to report the direct speech).
2. She acted as if she hadn't known him. (IMO, this means something different).

#1 is correct for your example sentence.

 

[CarloSsS]

#1 is correct for your example sentence.

What about this? Is a conversation like this possible? How would the meaning of what B says be different from #2?

A: "Did you see how she acted? It was strange."
B: "Yeah, she acted as if she hadn't known him."

 

[bhaisahab]

What about this? Is a conversation like this possible? How would the meaning of what B says be different from #2?

A: "Did you see how she acted? It was strange."
B: "Yeah, she acted as if she hadn't known him."

That's not natural.

 

[Raymott]

What about this? Is a conversation like this possible? How would the meaning of what B says be different from #2?

A: "Did you see how she acted? It was strange."
B: "Yeah, she acted as if she hadn't known him."

To use the past perfect in the second sentence, you need the present perfect in the first.

Direct: "You look like you haven't done your homework."
Indirect: "She looked like she hadn't done her homework."

"Tom, you look as if you've been ill."

"When I saw Tom, he looked as if he had been ill."

"You act as if you haven't known him." (Strange sentence, but necessary if you want to use the following one.)
​

"She acted as if she hadn't known him."

"You act as if you haven't seen him." (Normal)
"She acted as if she hadn't seen him." (Normal)

 

[CarloSsS]

To use the past perfect in the second sentence, you need the present perfect in the first.

Direct: "You look like you haven't done your homework."
Indirect: "She looked like she hadn't done her homework."

"Tom, you look as if you've been ill."

"When I saw Tom, he looked as if he had been ill."

"You act as if you haven't known him." (Strange sentence, but necessary if you want to use the following one.)
​

"She acted as if she hadn't known him."

"You act as if you haven't seen him." (Normal)
"She acted as if she hadn't seen him." (Normal)

Thank you very much. Would something like this be possible?

Direct: Look at Tom. He looks as if he had been ill. (Saying that he is not ill now, but it seems that he was ill sometimes in the recent past and still bears some signs of his past illness).
Indirect: When I saw Tom, he looked as if he had been ill.

 

[bhaisahab]

Thank you very much. Would something like this be possible?

Direct: Look at Tom. He looks as if he had been ill. (Saying that he is not ill now, but it seems that he was ill sometimes in the recent past and still bears some signs of his past illness).
Indirect: When I saw Tom, he looked as if he had been ill.

Yes, that's fine.

 

[Raymott]

Thank you very much. Would something like this be possible?

Direct: Look at Tom. He looks as if he had been ill. (Saying that he is not ill now, but it seems that he was ill sometimes in the recent past and still bears some signs of his past illness).
Indirect: When I saw Tom, he looked as if he had been ill.

I'd say not. The first sentence is unnatural. "... he had been ill" before what? You only have one event in the past.
In this case, you'd say, "He looks as if he has been ill."

If I said to you, "You look like you had been ill", it wouldn't make sense.

For your example, it almost works if it were something like this:
A: "Why did Tom do so badly in the race?"
B: "It looks like he had been ill." (ie. before the race).
It's a bad example - people don't usually look as if they had been ill before something else - but it does provide the necessary two events in the past.

 

[philo2009]

Is it all right to shift tenses with unreal time structure combined with as/if as though?

Direct speech:
Tom, you look as if you were ill." (This means that although he looks ill, he is not).

Indirect speech:
"When I saw Tom, he looked as if he was ill." (This is what I would use normally).
"When I saw Tom, he looked as if he had been ill." (This is what I would use if I wanted to suggest that he might have been ill sometimes in the (recent) past before I saw him).

Is my reasoning correct?

Yes, your reasoning is quite correct, although, as another contributor has pointed out, there is no obligation to use the subjunctive in the original sentence. Some English users will find the use of 'were' here a little old-fashioned.

(N.B.: correction to second example)