the more or less complete works vs more or less the complete works

[Alexey86]

Hello! Which of the three variants below is correct?

I have the more or less complete works of Leo Tolstoy.
I have more or less the complete works of Leo Tolstoy.
I have the more-or-less complete works of Leo Tolstoy.

 

[jutfrank]

None of them are good. Don't use more or less with complete and certainly not with complete works.

The second is the best grammatically.

 

[Alexey86]

I see. It sounds self-contradictory. So, I've bought more or less a new car would be better, right?

 

[jutfrank]

So, I've bought more or less a new car would be better, right?

No. I suggest you use more or less only when you mean 'approximately' or 'loosely'.

 

[Alexey86]

Not if you are talking about your library of books by Tolstoy.

I'm not sure what you mean. What else can I talk about?

 

[emsr2d2]

It was meant to be humorous - you can't say the words in post #3 if you want to express the idea in post #1. :-D

 

[Alexey86]

No. I suggest you use more or less only when you mean 'approximately' or 'loosely'.

It's interesting. In Russian the 'car' sentence sounds natural and means just 'relatively new'.

 

[emsr2d2]

It certainly doesn't work with "the complete works of".

Q: Do you own the complete works of Tolstoy?
A1: Yes. :tick:
A2: No. :tick:
A3: More or less. :cross:

 

[Alexey86]

It certainly doesn't work with "the complete works of".

Q: Do you own the complete works of Tolstoy?
A1: Yes. :tick:
A2: No. :tick:
A3: More or less. :cross:

Q: Is your collection of Tolstoy's works complete?
A: More or less.

Does it work here?

 

[GoesStation]

Q: Is your collection of Tolstoy's works complete?
A: More or less.

Does it work here?

That's imprecise but possible. A careful speaker couldn't answer that way because "complete" is an absolute, binary condition. But the speaker could have been thinking something like "It depends on what you mean by 'works'. I have everything he published during his lifetime, but an edition of his letters was published posthumously. I haven't been able to find a copy of that, so strictly speaking, I'm missing something."

 

[jutfrank]

That's imprecise but possible. A careful speaker couldn't answer that way because "complete" is an absolute, binary condition.

Yes, I agree entirely.

You can't have 'more than' the complete works, so it doesn't really make sense. It doesn't sound unnatural, though.

 

[Alexey86]

"It depends on what you mean by 'works'. I have everything he published during his lifetime, but an edition of his letters was published posthumously. I haven't been able to find a copy of that, so strictly speaking, I'm missing something."

That's exactly what I mean by 'more or less' in this case. Can 'more or less a new car' be used to express the idea of relativity: it might be new from one point of view and old from another?

 

[emsr2d2]

I don't think it works with a car at all. A car is either new (brand new, no previous owners) or new to you (it replaces your previous car but you're not the first owner), or it's a used/second-hand car (has had at least one previous owner). A car is sometimes described as "almost new", meaning that it is maybe 3-6 months old. It might or might not have already had an owner before you got it.

I think part of the problem here is that you're trying to use "more or less" as an adjective before a noun. It's not really used that way by native speakers. It's usually used to give an imprecise response to a query.

Have you finished your homework?
More or less.

Would you say that guy's hair is blond?
More or less.

Are you OK?
More or less.

 

[Alexey86]

Have you finished your homework?
More or less.

Would you say that guy's hair is blond?
More or less.

Are you OK?
More or less.

We use the same pattern in Russian, and 'more or less' is often close to 'relatively'. That's why I'm surprised that 'more or less a new car' sounds unnatural to you. It's OK. I'll just accept it as a fact.

 

[GoesStation]

I can imagine answering "Did you get a new car?" with "More or less. The dealer used it as a loaner, so it had a few thousand miles on it. I guess you could say it was 'more or less' new."

Note that I didn't use the exact phrase "more or less a new car". That's harder to work into a conversation.

 

[Alexey86]

Look at the following examples. Are they correct and natural?

The premise was Warholian — applying a voyeuristic eye to unscripted moments — and so was the aftermath. Millions tuned in, and the Louds became a more or less new type of celebrity. (The New York Times)

...Ryan Adams's version of Oasis's ''Wonderwall,'' Patty Griffin's ''One Big Love'' and Richard Thompson's ''I Feel So Good.''
These more-or-less new recordings are intermingled with the best of the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Bruce Springsteen,
Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Fleetwood Mac and dozens of other classic folk and rock performers. (The New York Times)

Many traditional games became available as software packages, and more-or-less new ones
were developed for the medium, though most of these are minor variations on well-worn themes.
(Encyclopaedia Britannica)

 

[Alexey86]

Not particularly.

What would you change?

 

[Alexey86]

I would not use 'more or less new', with or without hyphens. Read through the responses in this thread again.

I haven't noticed any alternatives in the thread. Would 'relatively' sound better to you?

 

[jutfrank]

The problem with It's more or less a new car is not so much to do with the meaning of the phrase more or less (here understood as synonymous with 'relatively') than with the grammar.

The car is more or less new. :tick: [more or less modifies new]

It's a more or less new car. :tick: [grammatical (if not very natural) because more or less modifies new]

It's more or less a new car. :cross: [ungrammatical because more or less seems to apply to the head car, not the modifier new]

If you substitute the phrase for a synonym, you can see what's wrong:

It's relatively a new car. :cross:

 

[Alexey86]

It's more or less a new car. :cross: [ungrammatical because more or less seems to apply to the head car, not the modifier new]

I'm a bit confused. You called 'I have more or less the complete works of Leo Tolstoy' grammatical in #2. But the 'more or less' parts in both sentences are similar syntactically.