The concept of naturalness

[Sammy Sam]

Which of the following statements is grammatical and natural?

1. I didn't happen to have my umbrella with me when it started raining.
2. I didn't happen to have my umbrella with me when it started to rain.

 

[Barque]

Both are grammatical. Neither is natural.

"I didn't have an umbrella with me when it started raining."

Keep it simple. "Happen to" isn't needed in such simple sentences.

 

[Tarheel]

I didn't have my umbrella with me when it started raining, so I got wet.

 

[Skrej]

Both are grammatical. Neither is natural.

"Happen to" isn't needed in such simple sentences.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the originals in terms of naturalness.

It may not be needed, but that doesn't make it unnatural. It's not uncommon to hear it used in casual speech. It can also be inserted for comedic effect or as wry commentary.

I accidentally ran a stop sign yesterday. Of course, I didn't happen to have my license on me when the cop pulled me over.

 

[Barque]

It depends on context and the OP didn't give us any.

I accidentally ran a stop sign yesterday. Of course, I didn't happen to have my license on me when the cop pulled me over.

Without context, I'd say the "of course" and the "didn't happen" part in your example is unnecessary.

"I ran a stop sign yesterday and a cop pulled me over. I didn't have my license on me".

I said they were unnatural because the OP didn't give us a context. In context they're possible, I agree.

 

[jutfrank]

Neither is natural.

What makes you think so? I find them both perfectly natural.

I said they were unnatural because the OP didn't give us a context.

How does that make them unnatural?

 

[Barque]

In my opinion, there's no reason to say "I didn't happen". It's simpler to say "I didn't" if you're just making a statement of fact.

 

[jutfrank]

In my opinion, there's no reason to say "I didn't happen". It's simpler to say "I didn't" if you're just making a statement of fact.

Okay.

One of the few frustrations I've had for years about this forum is the different ways that members think of the notion of naturalness in language use. It can really cause problems. Perhaps it's time to start a discussion about what we really mean when we say something is or isn't natural.

 

[probus]

Okay @jutfrank I'll kick off the discussion. Naturalness is not an on-off switch but a continuum. The more likely a native speaker is to prefer a certain usage over possible alternatives, the more natural that usage is. That's the definition of naturalness I've always gone by.

This is such an impotant topic it should probably be restarted in a new thread.

 

[SoothingDave]

In my opinion, there's no reason to say "I didn't happen". It's simpler to say "I didn't" if you're just making a statement of fact.

There's no reason to say a lot of things we say. That doesn't make them unnatural.

 

[Barque]

There's no reason to say a lot of things we say.

Well I don't know about you, but I don't usually say things without a reason.

 

[jutfrank]

There's no reason to say a lot of things we say. That doesn't make them unnatural.

Yes, this identifies exactly the problem I mentioned. There's a major difference between what counts as a natural thing to say in a certain situation, and what counts as natural language.

I think that if we make it a bit clearer in future which one we mean, we'll avoid some confusion, and avoid contradicting each other.

 

[Issac Acker]

Not a teacher. (Added by moderator.)


In my opinion, both sentences are correct and natural.

 

[Tarheel]

Speaking of naturalness, the most natural thing is to ask yourself what you would say in a similar situation. As for the OP's question, I have never just happened to have my umbrella with me. It's always a conscious decision. Also, I'm not in the habit of using that phrase.

"I didn't have my umbrella with me. I got wet."

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[emsr2d2]

I find "happen to" unlikely in the original too, specifically because it's talking about not having something. If the reverse were true, it would work.

It suddenly started raining while I was walking the dog. Fortunately, I happened to have my umbrella with me so I didn't get soaked!

In short, I find it natural and likely to use "happen[ed] to" with a positive context but not a negative one.

 

[Barque]

I associate this use of "happened" with something that's fortuitous, or by chance.

He couldn't find a bottle opener. But I happened to have my Swiss knife on me and that has one.
He said he needed to get to town as soon as possible. It happened that I was going there too and I gave him a lift.

As far as umbrellas and rain are concerned, you'd normally carry an umbrella with you only if there was a chance of rain. The element of chance is missing, so even if the OP's sentence referred to having an umbrella and not to not having one, I still wouldn't use it.

 

[jutfrank]

In short, I find it natural and likely to use "happen[ed] to" with a positive context but not a negative one.

This is what I was talking about in posts #8 and #12—the difference between a situation being unlikely or hard to imagine and the 'naturalness' of the language itself.

 

[emsr2d2]

It happened that I was going there too and I gave him a lift.

In BrE, that's not natural. We'd start with either "I happened to be going there too ..." or "It just so happened that I was going there too ...".

 

[Barque]

In BrE, that's not natural. We'd start with either "I happened to be going there too ..." or "It just so happened that I was going there too ...".

You can read it with that change, or as "I happened to be going there too". The specific construction wasn't the main point of my post. I was talking about the sort of situation in which "I happened to ..." might be used.

 

[emsr2d2]

You can read it with that change, or as "I happened to be going there too". The specific construction wasn't the main point of my post. I was talking about the sort of situation in which "I happened to ..." might be used.

I know that wasn't the main point of your post but I wanted to make sure that learners knew not to use "It happened that I was ..." when speaking/writing to BrE speakers.