[Vocabulary] State (perception) verbs

[assasalym]

I know that in English verb can be state or action verb. Perception verbs (like see, hear) belongs to the first group,
but could you explain me why ? Perception isn't more a process (it is involuntary action of our senses, which send some signals to the brain) than a state ?
Please compare and tell me the difference:

I see a chair. (state)
I'm looking at the chair. (action)

 

[jutfrank]

I don't think it's particularly useful to categorise verbs of perception as state verbs since they don't relate to states. They belong in a class of their own, even though there are some similarities of usage.

 

[assasalym]

In English Oxford dictionary, perception was defined as 'state of being aware'. So perception seems to be considered as a state,
in my opinion it is more a dynamic state (because information received by our sensors is updated all the time) than static (compare to posession verbs like have).
So the main difference between see and look at is about if this is conscious or unconscious action of the subject, right ?

So, please take a look at another examples.
- The keys are lying on the table. (this is a state, but described as an action)
- He is breathing slowly. (a state, but described as an action, usually our body do this uncounsciously)
- Books stand (or are standing) on the shelf ?(this is also a state, not an action).

 

[assasalym]

This explains me a lot, but I've now a new question related with this topic. Is this correct to say that action is not necessary connected with 'ing' form of the verb ?
If it not an action then is it a state ? When some person is "doing" something expressed by verb like: wait(-ing), stand (ing), lie (lying), sleeping - do we talk about action or state ? Is process like 'dying', 'growing up' or 'getting old' a special kind of action (with no agent), because a change of state can be observed ?

 

[jutfrank]

If it not an action then is it a state ? When some person is "doing" something expressed by verb like: wait(-ing), stand (ing), lie (lying), sleeping - do we talk about action or state ?

When teaching language, we consider these verbs as action verbs. But we could also consider them as states, too. We might describe somebody who is sleeping as being in a state of sleeping.

Is process like 'dying', 'growing up' or 'getting old' a special kind of action (with no agent), because a change of state can be observed ?

Yes, these verbs are special in that one doesn't 'do' them in the same way as one kicks a ball or rides a bike.

I personally consider some verbs as 'state-change' verbs. When something dies, it changes from alive to dead instantaneously. Other examples are wake up/get married, etc.

 

[assasalym]

Geoffrey Leach and colleagues describe four types of stative verbs in their work: ​"Our analysis follows previous proposals...that divide verbs lending themselves to stative interpretation into four semantic classes:

(a) Perception and sensation (e.g. see, hear, smell, hurt, taste)...
(b) Cognition, emotion, attitude (e.g. think, feel, forget, long, remember)...
(c) Having and being (e.g. be, have, have to, cost, require)...
(d) Stance (e.g. sit, stand, lie, live, face)

found in https://www.thoughtco.com/stative-verb-1692139
In their book "Change in Contemporary English: A Grammatical Study." there is also explanation why some verbs
which are normally stative are used in progressive, as for temporary states, sample from the book (page 129):
Mary’s living in a flat in London.

For me this is similar to the verb sleep - which also describes temporary state.

 

[assasalym]

I don't think it's particularly useful to categorise verbs of perception as state verbs since they don't relate to states. They belong in a class of their own, even though there are some similarities of usage.

For me this look also a little bit strange, because perception (perception verbs) is explained as an unconscious process (there is no change of state in any participant, but in which our mind plays active role), process usually are similar to actions. So I think that only to make things simplier there is no another category for this kind of verbs, from grammar perpsective they are similar to state verbs, so they are in the same category, but this assigment doesn't have to fit to our (scientist) knowledge about
the world. In real 'see' something is not a state, but an unconscious process. Do you agree with me ?

 

[Tdol]

What exactly does something being unconscious have to do with this?

 

[assasalym]

Because conscious activity of the mind would be called mental action.
Anywhay now I think that better would be call this uncontrolled process.

Comparing this process to breathing which also can be noticed as unconscious activity,
but which can be controlled (in some degree at least), so we can think about breathing as an action.

 

[emsr2d2]

Because conscious activity of the mind would be called mental action. [STRIKE]Anywhay[/STRIKE] Anyway, now I think that it would be better [STRIKE]would be[/STRIKE] to call this an uncontrolled process.

I am comparing this process to breathing, which [STRIKE]also[/STRIKE] can also be [STRIKE]noticed[/STRIKE] considered [STRIKE]as[/STRIKE] an unconscious activity, but which can be controlled (in some degree at least), so we can think about breathing as an action.

Note my corrections above.

 

[jutfrank]

For me this look also a little bit strange, because perception (perception verbs) is explained as an unconscious process (there is no change of state in any participant, but in which our mind plays active role), process usually are similar to actions. So I think that only to make things simplier there is no another category for this kind of verbs, from grammar perpsective they are similar to state verbs, so they are in the same category, but this assigment doesn't have to fit to our (scientist) knowledge about
the world. In real 'see' something is not a state, but an unconscious process. Do you agree with me ?

I'm not sure I fully understand exactly what you're saying but I'll try to answer.

Firstly, I disagree that "perception is explained as an unconscious process". Is that your idea?

Secondly, I agree that it is reasonable to say that perception is a kind of 'mental action'. I disagree that it can be considered a process.

I think the key thing to remember here is that when we classify verbs as stative/dynamic, the point is that we are trying describe how these verbs are commonly used (i.e. in continuous tenses). We mustn't get distracted by the meaning of highly abstract concepts like states and actions. And we must remember that there is nothing intrinsically stative about a verb such as see, which can have many different uses depending on what ideas we mean to express.

Practically, I think Leach's classification is about as useful as it gets.

 

[Tdol]

Because conscious activity of the mind would be called mental action.
Anywhay now I think that better would be call this uncontrolled process.

Comparing this process to breathing which also can be noticed as unconscious activity,
but which can be controlled (in some degree at least), so we can think about breathing as an action.

We can think, IMO, about breathing as both an action and a process. I think that trying to force verbs that may describe different things could be like trying to say that a noun can only be countable or uncountable, when they can take different forms in different contexts.

 

[assasalym]

Firstly, I disagree that "perception is explained as an unconscious process". Is that your idea?

Yes, I think it was my idea, which seems to be wrong. There is a case of unconscious perception (blindsight), but I didn't have this in mind.
Yes, it is better to think about particular usage of some verb (stative, active) than classify it to some category.
As we see there are many verbs with state meaning (like live, sit, stand, lie, even be) which can be used in progression,
and in opposite way, verbs which active meaning (like see, hear) which are used only in a state form (maybe it helps to look at them as constant/no-changing process).

Another interesting example is with the verb: shine.
We can say: Sun shines. (state) or Sun is shining. (dynamic)
What is the difference ?