start/begin

[Taka]

Is 'start not to do/begin not to do' grammatically correct and does it make sense?

 

[5jj]

We would be far more likely to say "I gave up doing/Istopped doing" than "I started to stop doing". You can, I suppose start to cut down on (doing) something, but it is hard to start to stop (doing) something. Stopping is normally an instantaneous thing. The second you stop doing something, that's it.

 

[Taka]

We would be far more likely to say "I gave up doing/Istopped doing" than "I started to stop doing".

Is your 'start to stop doing' meant to be the same as my 'start not to do'?

 

[emsr2d2]

Do you mean something like "I started to not smoke ten years ago"? I can understand the concept because, much like alcoholics, many smokers feel that they have never completely given up or stopped smoking, they are just constantly in the process of quitting. On that basis, they may not want to say "I stopped smoking ten years ago" or "I gave up smoking ten years ago". However, I would suggest "I last smoked ten years ago".

Can you give us some example sentences in which you use your construction though, so we can see how you wish to use it?

 

[Barb_D]

Real sentences are always easy to work with than fragments.

Let's say you have a few bad habits. You leave dirty dishes in the sink overnight. You interrupt your spouse a lot. You eat when you're stressed. You've resolved to eliminate these things, but you know it won't be an instant process.

I'm starting to stop leaving dishes in the sink overnight.
I'm starting to stop eating for stress relief.


I can see using those sentences.

 

[emsr2d2]

Real sentences are always easy to work with than fragments.

Let's say you have a few bad habits. You leave dirty dishes in the sink overnight. You interrupt your spouse a lot. You eat when you're stressed. You've resolved to eliminate these things, but you know it won't be an instant process.

I'm starting to stop leaving dishes in the sink overnight.
I'm starting to stop eating for stress relief.


I can see using those sentences.

I agree with you, but the original question was "Is 'start not to do/begin not to do' grammatically correct and does it make sense?" as opposed to "starting to stop". So would you say "I'm starting to not leave dishes in the sink overnight"?

 

[Taka]

Do you mean something like "I started to not smoke ten years ago"?

Yes, something like that. But is 'start to not smoke' grammatically OK? Not 'start not to smoke'?

 

[Barb_D]

I agree with you, but the original question was "Is 'start not to do/begin not to do' grammatically correct and does it make sense?" as opposed to "starting to stop". So would you say "I'm starting to not leave dishes in the sink overnight"?

Oh, I got lost. No surprise.
Yes, I can imagine saying "I'm starting to not leave dishes in the sink every night, but I still slip up every once in a while." or "I'm beginning to not eat for stress relief, but that box of Girl Scout cookies did get me through my father's surgery."

 

[emsr2d2]

Yes, something like that. But is 'start to not smoke' grammatically OK? Not 'start not to smoke'?

So you were actually asking about the word order, rather than whether it was grammatically correct.

"I started to not smoke" is not quite the same as "I started not to smoke". However, I'm struggling to find a way of explaining the nuance. I'll keep thinking.

 

[Taka]

I learned that the negation of to-infinitives was 'not to do' and 'to not do' was grammatically wrong or informal if it should not be called grammatically wrong.

 

[Barb_D]

There have been very long discussion on "to not do" and "not to do."

I know people talk about not splitting the infinitive. (As someone who grew up listening to Captain Kirk talking about "to boldly go" this "rule" has never held much meaning to me.) Even if you believe in this rule, I see "Not Xing" as opposite state from "Xing." That is, I see the "not" as going firmly with the verb.

I can imagine saying "I started to not interrupt my husband all the time." "Not interrupting" is a state I'm aspiring to. I cannot imaging saying "I started not to interrupt..."

 

[shannico]

I don't think there's a problem with


I had told him over and over not to be so loud. Eventually he started not to make any more noise and to be quieter.

 

[5jj]

"I started to not smoke" is not quite the same as "I started not to smoke". However, I'm struggling to find a way of explaining the nuance. I'll keep thinking.

My feeling (and that's all it is):

"I started to not smoke" (e.g. after dinner) - I started to do something positive after dinner. That something was the conscious act of refraining from smoking.

"I started not to smoke after dinner" - It started to happen that, after dinner, I no longer smoked.

 

[5jj]

Barb was writing her post (#11) as I began mine (#13). It seems that she and I are thinking along the same lines, if I understand her correctly.

 

[spongie]

My feeling (and that's all it is):

"I started to not smoke" (e.g. after dinner) - I started to do something positive after dinner. That something was the conscious act of refraining from smoking.

"I started not to smoke after dinner" - It started to happen that, after dinner, I no longer smoked.

So it means that:
- "I started to not smoke." = conscious decision concerning smoking.
- "I started not to smoke." = on some unconscious level I stopped smoking, without planning to act upon my habit.

Right?

 

[5jj]

So it means that:
- "I started to not smoke." = conscious decision concerning smoking.
- "I started not to smoke." = on some unconscious level I stopped smoking, without planning to act upon my habit.

That's my (personal) feeling,though I'd rephrase you first paraphrase as 'conscious decision converning refraining'. I think you'd need several native speakers to agree before you could take it as fact. Even if some do agree, I think that many native speakers might simply feel that 'not to smoke' is more natural, and 'to not smoke' perhaps a little more emphatic. Perhaps.

 

[Taka]

That's my (personal) feeling,.

Learning about the cognition of native speakers is very valuable, at least to me. That's something I cannot do with the books I have.

In addition to answering my questions from a grammatical point of view, from the next time I'd like you to answer them from that point of views, if possible.

Thanks, everyone.