[Grammar] recommend that + indicative clause?

[jiamajia]

Is that possible that a 'recommend that clause' is an indicative clause?


Some people say the following sentence is correct English:
The doctor recommended that you couldn’t swim after eating a large meal.

I strongly doubt it. Do you think it to be correct English? Thank you.

 

[Barb_D]

But I would prefer:
The doctor recommended not swimming...
The doctor suggested that you not swim...

 

[norwolf]

Hi, you guys.
I don't agree with you all personally.
None of us doubt the perfect choice in such sencences is the subjunctive. But in fact languages go in diversification.
How do you guys interpret these:

[FONT=&#23435]quote:[/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]Cambridge-English Advanced Grammar in Use1999:[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]In less formal contexts we can use ordinary tenses instead of the subjunctive. Compare:[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]They recommended that he should give up writing.[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]They recommended that he give up writing, (more formal)[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]They recommended that he gives up writing, (less formal)[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]Notice also:[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]They recommended that he gave up writing. (= he gave it up)[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language1985

[FONT=&#23435]The report recommended that education for the over-sixteens should be improved.[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]The report recommended that education for the over-sixteens be improved.[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]The report recommended that education for the over-sixteens ought to be improved.[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]He was very reluctant to leave, but I recommended that he went.[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

The employees have demanded that the manager resign.
The employees have demanded that the manager should resign.
The employees have demanded that the manager resigns.
The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language2002
It is essential that everyone attend the meeting.
It is essential that everyone should attend the meeting.
It is essential that everyone attends the meeting.

[FONT=&#23435]Oxford[/FONT][FONT=&#23435] Guide to English Grammar1994[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]NOTE[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]It often makes no difference whether a form is subjunctive or not.[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]We recommend that both schemes go ahead.[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]Longman English Grammar1988[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]11.75.2 That... should' after 'suggest', etc.[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]- future reference: affirmative/negative after (that):[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]That should can be used after such verbs as ask, propose, recommend and suggest; alternatively, the present or subjunctive can be used in BrE or the subjunctive in AmE. That is generally dropped in informal style:[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]I suggest (that) he should/shouldn't apply for the job (should) [/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]I suggest (that) he applies/doesn't apply for the job (present)[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]I suggest (that) he apply/not apply for the job (subjunctive)[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]- past reference: affirmative/negative after (that):[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]In past reported suggestions, the (that) should construction and the subjunctive can be replaced by a past tense:[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]I suggested (that) they should/shouldn't drive along the coast.[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]I suggested (that) they drive/not drive along the coast.[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#23435]I suggested (that) they drove/didn't drive along the coast.[/FONT][FONT=&#23435][/FONT]​

 

[norwolf]

So, well-educated, we say the subjunctive; negligently we say the indicative in such sentences.
But IMO, both are correct, neither of which is incorrect.

Just for fun.

 

[jiamajia]

[FONT=&#23435]I suggested (that) they drove/didn't drive along the coast.----I don't treat this one to be subjunctive. It could have a totally different connotation.[/FONT]


I suggested that they drove along the coast.= I insinuated that they drove along the coast. (Although, a lot of people might think they drove on another route, my suggestion[insinuation] was that they did drive along the coast.) It is an indicative clause.

However, there is no way a 'recommend that clause' can be indicative.​

 

[norwolf]

[FONT=&#23435]I suggested (that) they drove/didn't drive along the coast[/FONT]​

​

That's different. And the meaning of suggest has changed already:
I expressed indirectly they drove drive along the coast.




Do you native speakers think so?

 

[jiamajia]

Let me give you another example of what is subjunctive and what is indicative:


Subjunctive:
South Korea suggested(proposed) that North Korea sink the vessel.
(This one might have run counter to what really happened recently.)



Indicative:
South Korea suggested(implied) that North Korea sank the vessel.
(This one is close to what happened recently.)

The difference there is just a sink-sank thing, but the meanings are diametrically opposite.

 

[norwolf]

Hello, everyone.
In short, can we say "The doctor recommended that you couldn’t swim after eating a large meal."?

Would you teachers kindly answer the question responsibly? Please!
I would kneel down and kiss your ring.

 

[bhaisahab]

Hello, everyone.
In short, can we say "The doctor recommended that you couldn’t swim after eating a large meal."?

Would you teachers kindly answer the question responsibly? Please!
I would kneel down and kiss your ring.

No, "recommended..........shouldn't"; "said...........couldn't".

 

[norwolf]

No, "recommended..........shouldn't"; "said...........couldn't".

Well, bh, thanks a lot.
Did you mean we never, ever treat can as be allowed to in such a sentence instead of be able to?

 

[norwolf]

How about this: ordered........couldn't?


or: recommended.......mightn't?


And this:
Noting that millions of Americans are at least 20% overweight, it recommended that these people could cut down on dietary fats, which contain twice as many calories as equal amounts of carbohydrates and proteins.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...952668,00.html

 

[Tdol]

How about this: ordered........couldn't?


or: recommended.......mightn't?


And this:
Noting that millions of Americans are at least 20% overweight, it recommended that these people could cut down on dietary fats, which contain twice as many calories as equal amounts of carbohydrates and proteins.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...952668,00.html

That's an ugly sentence from Time.

Also, when you say we never, ever treat when someone was responding to a specific sentence, it would appear that you are looking more for a fight than a discussion. This is a forum for discussions, so kindly leave the language of ring-kissing and irresponsibility in the pplayground