He looked after them ever <since> <after> he moved there.

[Michaelll]

I was watching a movie The Whale and I saw this line:

• I was the black sheep. I refused to go to church ever since I was 12.

I always thought that with 'since' (meaning: from that point in time, not 'because') it should be the perfect tense - "I've refused to go... ever since...".
So I'd like to ask you, is it fine to use 'since' with the past simple?

• He's been looking after them ever since he moved there. (until now)
• He looked/was looking after them ever since he moved there. (?) (either he's dead or he just doesn't bother anymore)
• He looked/was looking after them ever after he moved there. (?) (either he's dead or he just doesn't bother anymore)

 

[jutfrank]

It's natural for some American speakers, yes. To me it sounds wrong. I'd correct you if you did this.

Is that woman a native speaker?

 

[emsr2d2]

I'm pretty sure they would have said "black sheep".

 

[Michaelll]

It's natural for some American speakers, yes. To me it sounds wrong. I'd correct you if you did this.

Is that woman a native speaker?

I'm not so sure that woman is a native speaker, but I know that the author (who wrote the script) is. What do you think that line should be changed into? What do you think of these?

• I was the black sheep. I refused to go to church ever after I was 12. (as a fact)
• I was the black sheep. I had refused to go to church ever since I was 12. (until the time I'm describing)
  or
• I'm the black sheep. I've refused to go to church ever since I was 12. (if the situation is still true now)

 

[jutfrank]

I've just read the whole quote again and I see now that I misread it.

The fact that she says I was the black sheep strongly suggests that she's talking about the past, in which case the past simple refused seems like the right choice.

Since we can't see more context, it's hard to know what she means. Can't you tell us? Is she talking about the present or the past?

 

[Michaelll]

I've just read the whole quote again and I see now that I misread it.

The fact that she says I was the black sheep strongly suggests that she's talking about the past, in which case the past simple refused seems like the right choice.

• My big brother did some missionary work for New Life. Went to South America. I was the black sheep. I refused to go to church ever since I was 12. Dad knew I was a lost cause, but not my brother, he loved New Life. He wrote me a letter a few months after he left, told me he was tired, and lonely, but he didn't want to come home because he didn't want to get married.

This is what she said. Of course she's talking about the past, this is the main point of my question. If we're talking about the past, should we change 'since' to 'after' or 'from' while using the past simple/continuous? Or is 'since' also fine?

• She's gone to his grave every weekend since 1983. (until now)
• She went to his grave every weekend from/since 1983. (?) (either she's dead or she just doesn't go there anymore)
  
  
• He's been looking after them ever since he moved there. (until now)
• He looked/was looking after them ever after/since he moved there. (?) (either he's dead or he just doesn't bother anymore)

 

[jutfrank]

Of course she's talking about the past

Then why were you asking if you should change it to the present tense?

If we're talking about the past, should we change 'since' to 'after' or 'from' while using the past simple/continuous? Or is 'since' also fine?

Past simple, not continuous. I agree that since is questionable here. Many would consider it incorrect as it almost always relates to a period stretching to the present moment, or to a past time period with a past time endpoint.

 

[emsr2d2]

I consider it ungrammatical.

I refused to go to church [anymore] when I turned twelve.
I have refused to go to church since I was twelve.

 

[Michaelll]

Then why were you asking if you should change it to the present tense?

I wasn't asking if I should change the past tense to the present tense, I was asking what (if I were to say it) should I change 'since' to? And I was also asking if you liked my suggested versions. So do you like them? (below and those from #6)

• I was the black sheep. I refused to go to church ever since I was 12. (from the movie)
• I was the black sheep. I refused to go to church ever after I was 12. (mine) (?)
• I was the black sheep. I had refused to go to church ever since I was 12. (mine) (?)

 

[jutfrank]

The first is wrong, because you can't say ever after. The second is okay, grammatically, as the past perfect allows an endpoint for since.

Generally, to replace since in these cases, from is the best option if it's a preposition you need. If you're following with a clause and you need a conjunction, however, after is fine.

I refused to go to church from the age of twelve. [from + NP]
I refused to go to church after I turned twelve. [after + clause]

There are other possibilities available, of course.

I refused to go to church the moment I turned twelve.

 

[Michaelll]

The first is wrong, because you can't say ever after. The second is okay, grammatically, as the past perfect allows an endpoint for since.

You can't say ever after? Hmm.. I've heard "And they lived happily ever after", I considered it to be the past version of "And they've lived happily ever since".

 

[5jj]

Ever after is self contained. You can't say ever after something.

 

[Michaelll]

I refused to go to church after I turned twelve. [after + clause]

I think this is a good alternative. Are you sure you can't say 'ever after I turned twelve'?

By the way, do you like my other suggested version from #6?

• She's gone to his grave every weekend since 1983. (until now)
• She went to his grave every weekend from 1983. (?) (either she's dead or she just doesn't go there anymore)
  
  
• He's been looking after them ever since he moved there. (until now)
• He looked/was looking after them (ever) after he moved there. (?) (either he's dead or he just doesn't bother anymore)

 

[probus]

I
Are you sure you can't say 'ever after I turned twelve'?

Yes, definitely. As @5jj told you, "ever after" is self-contained. Think of it as a set phrase, almost a cliche. (Sorry for the missing accent on cliche.)

 

[jutfrank]

I think this is a good alternative.

Thanks for your validation.

Are you sure you can't say 'ever after I turned twelve'?

Um, let me check ... yes.

By the way, do you like my other suggested version from #6?

• She went to his grave every weekend from 1983. (?) (either she's dead or she just doesn't go there anymore)

Fine.

• He looked/was looking after them (ever) after he moved there. (?) (either he's dead or he just doesn't bother anymore)

Not good. What do you think's wrong with it?

 

[5jj]

Are you sure you can't say 'ever after I turned twelve'?

Not with ever after as a phrase.

You can just about say I didn't see him again ever after I turned twelve, in which ever is part of the first clause and after part of the second. It would be more natural to use never.

 

[Michaelll]

I think this is a good alternative.

Thanks for your validation.

Is this sarcasm? I just wanted to thank you this way. I say the same thing to my teachers and they don't get offended. Sorry if I said something rude.

• She's gone to his grave every weekend since 1983. (until now)
• She went to his grave every weekend from 1983. (?) (either she's dead or she just doesn't go there anymore)

Fine.

Thanks!

Not good. What do you think's wrong with it?

I'm not so sure, maybe the 'ever' in parentheses as an option?

• He looked/was looking after them (ever) after he moved there. (?) (either he's dead or he just doesn't bother anymore)

Not with ever after as a phrase.

You can just about say I didn't see him again ever after I turned twelve, in which ever is part of the first clause and after part of the second. It would be more natural to use never.

Thank you.

 

[jutfrank]

Is this sarcasm? I just wanted to thank you this way. I say the same thing to my teachers and they don't get offended. Sorry if I said something rude.

Yes, it was sarcastic. It's okay, I'm not really offended. Just playing.

I'm not so sure, maybe the 'ever' in parentheses as an option?

• He looked/was looking after them (ever) after he moved there. (?) (either he's dead or he just doesn't bother anymore)

Right.

 

[Marika33]

I agree that since is questionable here. Many would consider it incorrect as it almost always relates to a period stretching to the present moment, or to a past time period with a past time endpoint.

I'm sorry, I don't get it. You literally said "or to a past time period with a past time endpoint".

Generally, to replace since in these cases, from is the best option if it's a preposition you need. If you're following with a clause and you need a conjunction, however, after is fine.

Does it mean that the woman in the movie should have said, "I refused to go to church after I turned twelve/from the age of twelve" instead of the grammatically wrong version, "I refused to go to church ever since I was 12"?

Or, maybe, is your other statement true?

The fact that she says I was the black sheep strongly suggests that she's talking about the past, in which case the past simple refused seems like the right choice.

 

[jutfrank]

I'm sorry, I don't get it. You literally said "or to a past time period with a past time endpoint".

Yes, I did. That's my way of conceding that it is sometimes used by some people with a past time endpoint. However, I'm telling you not to do that because I think it's often wrong, or at least not very good English. Note though that I do consider it okay to use 'since' with a past time endpoint in certain contexts—most notably in past perfect sentences.

Does it mean that the woman in the movie should have said, "I refused to go to church after I turned twelve/from the age of twelve" instead of the grammatically wrong version, "I refused to go to church ever since I was 12"?

Yes.