[Grammar] confused with grammar - The doctor recommended he gives up smoking

[HeartShape]

Hi,

I'm a little thrown off by the following sentences with the verb "give(s)".

1. The doctor recommended he give up smoking. (More formal)
2. The doctor recommended he gives up smoking. (Less formal)

How does adding -s makes sentence 2 less formal?
Isn't the -s needed for subject verb agreement and correct grammar?

 

[emsr2d2]

It's only more "formal" because it uses the subjunctive, a form that some people associate only with formal English. Both forms are acceptable in modern, everyday English.

 

[HeartShape]

That's weird. If we break the sentence apart to:

1. [STRIKE]He give up smoking.[/STRIKE]
2. He gives up smoking.

Then syntactically sentence 1 is now incorrect.

 

[HeartShape]

I suggest you read up on the subjunctive mood --- and when and where it's appropriate. You might find a list of verbs which generally call for the subjunctive.

Is there a source you can recommend?

 

[HeartShape]

What about the following sentences here:

1. I suggested he should leave right now.
2. I suggested he should leaves right now.

Are the above sentences correct too? Sentence 2 doesn't sound natural, strangely.

 

[emsr2d2]

That's weird. If we break the sentence apart to:

1. [STRIKE]He give up smoking.[/STRIKE]
2. He gives up smoking.

Then syntactically sentence 1 is now incorrect.

Yes, sentence 1 is not correct without the earlier part. If you remove the relevant part of any sentence that uses the subjunctive mood, you will be left with a potentially ungrammatical shorter sentence.

I wish I were a millionaire. :tick:
I were a millionaire. :cross:

She suggested that he go to school. :tick:
He go to school. :cross:

 

[HeartShape]

Yes, sentence 1 is not correct without the earlier part. If you remove the relevant part of any sentence that uses the subjunctive mood, you will be left with a potentially ungrammatical shorter sentence.

I wish I were a millionaire. :tick:
I were a millionaire. :cross:

She suggested that he go to school. :tick:
He go to school. :cross:

Okay. I see your point. I guess subjunctives can only exist in subordinates clauses.

 

[HeartShape]

What about post number 6? Is that correct too because it sounds unnatural? It’s also in subjunctive apparently.

 

[HeartShape]

a) The doctor recommended he gives up smoking. (Less formal)
b) I suggested he should leaves right now. (Less formal)

I think I can sense the reason. The -s is less formal because in comparing both sentences in 2a and 2b, 2b sounds unnatural hence why -s is less formal. Could this be the reason why it is considered less formal?

 

[jutfrank]

I guess subjunctives can only exist in subordinates clauses.

Maybe you shouldn't guess. Try doing a spot of investigation into the use of the subjunctive and get back to us with any questions raised.

In post #6, sentence 2 is wrong. After modals, you must always use the base form of a verb.

 

[HeartShape]

After modals, you must always use the base form of a verb.

Thanks for that reminder, I remember reading that, but couldn't remember where. Thanks.

Maybe you shouldn't guess. Try doing a spot of investigation into the use of the subjunctive and get back to us with any questions raised.

In post #6, sentence 2 is wrong. After modals, you must always use the base form of a verb.

Well, it was an example from the following:

"suggest/recommend/insist/demand

Similarly with these reporting verbs, we can use should, the subjunctive or the normal tense in the that-clause, depending on whether it is appropriate to sound formal or not:

The government tried to insist (that) all firearms should be handed in without delay. (Or: be handed in, or are handed in.)
The doctors have recommended (that) he should remain in hospital for a further three weeks. (Or: remain, or remains.)
I suggested he should leave right now. (Or: leave, or leaves.)"

Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv105.shtml

So is Roger's teaching wrong?

 

[jutfrank]

I suggested he should leave is correct.
I suggested he should leaves is incorrect.

Please read our answers more carefully.

 

[HeartShape]

I suggested he should leave is correct.
I suggested he should leaves is incorrect.

Please read our answers more carefully.

I did read it carefully. There has been no misinterpretation here. I noted sentence, "2. [STRIKE]I suggested he should leaves[/STRIKE] is incorrect.", but wanted clarity if I have misinterepret the reading material that Roger have written?

 

[jutfrank]

What error?

Roger is correctly saying that there are 3 possibilities, all correct.

he should leave
he leaves
he leave

He is not saying that he should leaves is correct. It isn't. Is that what you mean?

 

[HeartShape]

What error?

Roger is correctly saying that there are 3 possibilities, all correct.

he should leave
he leaves
he leave

He is not saying that he should leaves is correct. It isn't. Is that what you mean?

Well, he didn't make any distinction to making it clear that "should" have been omitted from the sentences. I think from a learner’s perspective he should have illustrated a clear example of the words that shouldn't be part of the sentence when applying the new verb form.

Now it's clear.

 

[jutfrank]

Well, he didn't make any distinction to making it clear that "should" have been omitted from the sentences. I think from a learner’s perspective he should have illustrated a clear example of the words that shouldn't be part of the sentence when applying the new verb form.

Agreed.

 

[HeartShape]

Hi,

I just want to clarify something.

If we write the following sentences:

1. I suggested (that) he leave now.
2. I suggested (that) he leaves now.

Can we say that sentence 1 is present subjunctive and 2 is present indicative?

 

[TheParser]

NOT A TEACHER

Hello HeartShape:

I have found some information that may interest you.

1. "The employees have demanded that the manager resign." ( = subjunctive, especially American English.)

2. "The employees have demanded that the manager should resign." ( = especially British English.)

3. "The employees have demanded that the manager resigns." ( = indicative, especially British English.)

*****

My source feels, however, that the verb in the following sentence can be analyzed as either subjunctive or indicative: "Our decision is that the schools remain closed."


Source: Randolph Quirk et al., A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language (1985), page 157.

 

[HeartShape]

NOT A TEACHER

Hello HeartShape:

I have found some information that may interest you.

1. "The employees have demanded that the manager resign." ( = subjunctive, especially American English.)

2. "The employees have demanded that the manager should resign." ( = especially British English.)

3. "The employees have demanded that the manager resigns." ( = indicative, especially British English.)

*****

My source feels, however, that the verb in the following sentence can be analyzed as either subjunctive or indicative: "Our decision is that the schools remain closed."


Source: Randolph Quirk et al., A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language (1985), page 157.

Thanks for that. I am currently reading Randolph Quirk et al at the moment. It seems to be the only source, which talks in great depth about the subject matter.

 

[HeartShape]

The subjunctive is discussed in Huddleston and Pullum (2002), The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language: especially pages 993-1001.

Subjunctives appear to be scattered all over the book. I'm reading 993 now. Thanks.

If you are interested in how the subjunctive used to be used, it is discussed in Curme (1931.390-430), Syntax. Curme gives a detailed picture of how the subjunctive was used by educated Americans ninety and more years ago. Do not take it as a guide to how the subjunctive is used today.

I might have a look later. Thanks.