Birthed

[Glizdka]

Do you pronounce the /t/ after /θ/ in words like birthed? It's very difficult to do, but English already uses awkwardly difficult to produce consonant clusters like /fθs/ in fifths, so I assume you do pronounce it.

Here's my attempt. Does that sound right?

 

[5jj]

We do pronounce it.

Your second attempt is close; the /t/ is too weak on the others.

Your sentence sounds very unnatural in BrE. The verb 'birth' is rarely used.

 

[probus]

I've never much liked birth as a verb but it is pretty common in AmE

 

[Glizdka]

It was supposed to be bith in isolation, bithed in isolation, bithed in a sentence. I guess I should've transcribed it.

"Birth. Birthed. I love my mom; she birthed me into this world."

---

Here's my attempt at unsheathed.

"Unsheath. Unsheathed. The knights unsheathed their blades."

 

[5jj]

There was too much force in the /d/ in your attempts at /ðd/, probably because you were trying to ensure that it was not too weak. in your complete sentence, you /devoiced the /d/

Also, in "The knights unsheathed their blades", you chose an unhelpful example. In natural speech, the stop of /d/ is almost non-existent between the two /ð/s. Only in slow, careful speech would we detect a difference between "unsheathe their" and "unsheathed thei"r.

Try:
1a. "He unearthed a treasure."
1b. "He unearthed two treasures."

2a. "She soothed Ann's baby."
2b. "She soothed the baby."

The /t/ will be more distinct in 1a than in 1b, and the /d/ more distinct in 2a than in 2b.

 

[Glizdka]

There was too much force in the /d/ in your attempts at /ðd/, probably because you were trying to ensure that it was not too weak.

My problem exactly. I'm trying to find the right balance. I want it to be clearly audible, but also make it sound effortless and natural, like in an actual word in an actual language.

It's difficult to pull back the tongue from /θ/ to the right position for /t/. What I think happens when I try to go fast is that instead of touching the tongue to the side of the teeth I touch the edge because I retract it too slowly, and it's still in between the teeth after /θ/. I assume I have to fully retract it to make the /t/ sound right, right?

Here's my attempt at unearthed.
Here's soothed.

 

[probus]

In soothed there is no schwa between the th and the d. Those two consonants run seamlessly together.

Think for example of miffed, fooled, or curved. They all have only one syllable.

 

[Tarheel]

I didn't know Americans say birthed. I would expect to hear gave birth to.

 

[Glizdka]

In soothed there is no schwa between the th and the d. Those two consonants run seamlessly together.

Think for example of miffed, fooled, or curved. They all have only one syllable.

It might be because my non-native-speakerly ears can't catch that, or just because it's my own voice, but instead of hearing a schwa between the /ð/ and the /d/, I think I unintentionally added the /d/ sound to Ann. When I listen to myself recorded, it sounds like "She soothe Dan's baby" instead of "She soothed Ann's baby".

My tongue has a really difficult time with that movement. /ðd/ is even more difficult than /θt/. Any advice?

 

[SoothingDave]

Native speakers run words together all the time. We know where the D belongs from context. "She soothe" is not a correct conjugation.

There's a guy on the local news here. When they introduce him, there is no way from just listening to know if his name is Jim Andalinsky or Jim Mandalinsky. It's the latter.

 

[Tdol]

My tongue has a really difficult time with that movement. /ðd/ is even more difficult than /θt/. Any advice?

Maybe live with it if you can't master it. My Japanese wife says /mʌnθɪs/ Because she cannot manage /θs/. Some speakers may master this, but she has learned to live with not getting it right. People who work with her will get to know this- it's about comprehension not perfection for her.

 

[Glizdka]

Maybe live with it if you can't master it. My Japanese wife says /mʌnθɪs/ Because she cannot manage /θs/. Some speakers may master this, but she has learned to live with not getting it right. People who work with her will get to know this- it's about comprehension not perfection for her.

I'm addicted to honing. I'll either make it right or die trying.

To be fair, I'd never even noticed the /t/ and /d/ were pronounced there—I had always thought they were simply reduced like many other inconvenient consonant clusters, say, the reduced /t/ in between two /n/s in "I don't know"—that is until I heard it a few days ago when talking to a native speaker who has a particularly clear accent, pretty much model-like. I realized that maybe it's just so subtle that my untrained ears simply can't catch it.

My idea is that if and when I can make the sound myself, I'll be better at hearing it when it's said by others. I've already been there with other phonemes. It's fascinating how much you can't trust what you think you're hearing when you're not a native speaker.

 

[5jj]

To be fair, I'd never even noticed the /t/ and /d/ were pronounced there—I had always thought they were simply reduced like many other inconvenient consonant clusters, say, the reduced /t/ in between two /n/s in "I don't know"—that is until I heard it a few days ago when talking to a native speaker who has a particularly clear accent, pretty much model-like. I realized that maybe it's just so subtle that my untrained ears simply can't catch it.

There are many variations in the pronunciation of 'don't know'. The differences are so subtle that many of them can be detected only by a trained phonetician. Some of the more obvious variations are:

1. /aɪdnəʊ/ - The /d/ may not be heard, but it's there. The tongue stops on the /d/ and /n/ part of the alveolar ridge marginally longer than it would if the /d/ were not there. The release of the tongue is for the /n/, not for the /d/. It is context, intonation, facial expression and body language that tell us that this is 'I don't know' rather than 'I'd know'
This version might be considered sub-standard by some people.

2. /aɪdənəʊ/ - the /d/ is clearly released. but there is no trace of the /t/.

3. /aɪdʌnəʊ/ - this is simply a variant of #2, as is #4

4. /aɪdə)nəʊ/ - Of the three (2, 3 and 4), this is probably the one I use in informal conversation


These three are common in informal conversation, though some people claim they don't say them They believe that they pronounce the /t/.

5. /aɪdəʊn(t)nəʊ/ - Very similar to #4, though the tongue stops slightly longer on the alveolar ridge. it's not released as a /t/, but it's there.

6. /aɪdəʊntnəʊ/ - the (non-released stop of the /t/ is slightly longer again.

6. /aɪdəʊnt nəʊ/ - This is the version many speakers of BrE claim they use, but it's actually not very common in normal speech. You'll hear it normally only from people who are deliberately speaking carefully (as in a speech/lecture or an interview), or who are emphasising the negation. The /t/ may be aspirated.

(Note. I have given only a phonemic transcription. A narrow phonetic transcription would make the differences clearer visually, but would not be representative of a wide range of native speakers. it would also require a number of symbols and diacritics that are unfamiliar to non-specialists.)

 

[5jj]

My tongue has a really difficult time with that movement. /ðd/ is even more difficult than /θt/. Any advice?

You shouldn't really find one more difficult than the other - the tongue movements are exactly the same. The only real difference is that the voice switches off for a very short time in /ðd/' /θt/ is completely unvoiced.

Start by saying a long /ð/ then move the tongue up and back, maintaining light contact with the teeth until it reaches the part of the alveolar ridge where the /d/ sound is made and increase tongue pressure until the flow of iar, and the sound, stop. The tongue should slide rather than jump. You have now made the /ðd/ sound, though, as you haven't released the tongue from the alveolar ridge, you can't hear the /d/.

Repeat this several times until you are happy that you can do it easily. Gradually shorten the length of the /ð/.

The do it again, but release the tongue after the brief /d/ contact and make a sound. This will sound like /ðdə/. With the release of the tongue, you can now hear the /d of the /ðd/.

Now, slowly say He breathed a sigh. If you are having problems, make an unnaturally long /ð/ sound at first and slide the tongue up slowly to the /d/. Gradually increase your speed until you are comfortable saying it at normal speed. If you get bored, change your sentences - She writhed in agony, She seethed inside, Tom bathed (/beɪðd/) Alan's cut Mary loathed asparagus, They soothed Anne's brow.

The tongue makes exactly the same movements for /θt/., so you can try similar practice exercise with long /θ/, /θt/ and /θtə/, and then sentences: Tom bathed (bɑːθt) a baby, It berthed in Poole, The beer frothed over the rim.

I'll look at /ðd/ and /θt/ followed by a consonant if you find this post helpful.

 

[Glizdka]

I'll look at /ðd/ and /θt/ followed by a consonant if you find this post helpful.

It's just the kind of advice I've been looking for. Thank you!

I'll get back after I've practiced enough. Just one more question, to be sure, you do pronounce /dð/ and /tθ/ in words like width, too, right?

 

[5jj]

The /T/ in width and breadth is not released. It is also commonly devoiced, become unreleased /t/.

I can't for the moment think of a word ending in /dð/.

 

[Tdol]

It's fascinating how much you can't trust what you think you're hearing when you're not a native speaker.

Your voice that you hear and what others hear is always very different. I hate to hear recordings of my speech.

 

[Glizdka]

Bread. Breath. Breadth.

 

[5jj]

The final phoneme of breadth is /θ/.

 

[probus]

Three different final sounds, Gliz. The third combines both of the two different consonants that occur in the first two words. As 5jj points out the final phoneme of breadth is an unvoiced sibillant.