[Grammar] "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

[kadioguy]

"Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

Between is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

Among is used when the items are part of a group, or are not specifically named (MUST be 3 or more).

https://www.espressoenglish.net/whats-the-real-difference-between-between-and-among/
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I think the blue sentence has a dangling modifier. It should be corrected as

Between is used when we/you name distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

What do you think?

 

[SoothingDave]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

The sentence is fine. It's not a dangling modifier.

 

[kadioguy]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

The sentence is fine. It's not a dangling modifier.

Is this because you see it as the following?

Between is used (by us/you) when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

The green clause is a modifier which modifies us or you.

 

[SoothingDave]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

Between is used when (you are) naming...

 

[kadioguy]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

Between is used when (you are) naming...

But I think grammatically "when naming ..." modifies "Between". Please see an example sentence of dangling modifier:

Being over two hundred years old, I had difficulty reading the document.

"Being over two hundred years old" modifies "I", so this is a dangling modifier - it is the document that is old, not the reader.

Likewise,

Between is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

It is you/we that name items, not Between .

If this case doesn't have a dangling modifier, the possibility I can see is as said in post #3.

 

[jutfrank]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

1) Forget about what modifies what and whether it can be described as 'dangling'.
2) Accept that the sentence is absolutely fine and does not need correcting.
3) Yes, the interpretation is of course that the missing agent is we/you.

 

[emsr2d2]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

And that there is an implied "The word" before "between".

 

[kadioguy]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

Thank you all.

I have another question:

a. The word "between" is used when you are naming distinct, individual items ....
b. The word "between" is used when you name distinct, individual items ....

Are both acceptable? What is the difference in meaning between them?

 

[emsr2d2]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

They are both possible and mean the same. However, the original (without "The word" and without "you are" or "you", but with "naming") is correct, and shorter and snappier.

 

[jutfrank]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

I have another question:

a. The word "between" is used when you are naming distinct, individual items ....
b. The word "between" is used when you name distinct, individual items ....

Are both acceptable? What is the difference in meaning between them?

I don't think either of those questions is appropriate.

1) What do you mean by 'acceptable'? Do you just mean 'grammatical'? If not, please explain further.

2) What do you mean by 'difference in meaning'? That's not a good question to ask, in my opinion. In what way do you think there may be a difference in meaning? Why do you seem to think a difference in meaning is the most important difference? Are you sure you're not wondering about differences of usage? Can you say more about what you mean by 'meaning'? Remember that you have made up both of these sentences yourself.

 

[kadioguy]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

Thank you, jutfrank. With so many questions, I can feel your being upset.

1) What do you mean by 'acceptable'? Do you just mean 'grammatical'? If not, please explain further.

I use the term "acceptable" to mean this usage is grammatical and sounds natural to native speakers.

2) What do you mean by 'difference in meaning'? That's not a good question to ask, in my opinion. In what way do you think there may be a difference in meaning? Why do you seem to think a difference in meaning is the most important difference? Are you sure you're not wondering about differences of usage? Can you say more about what you mean by 'meaning'? Remember that you have made up both of these sentences yourself.

a. The word "between" is used when you are naming distinct, individual items ....
b. The word "between" is used when you name distinct, individual items ....

I made up both of these sentences and asked "what is the difference in meaning between them", because I thought they both seemed work, but I didn't know what the subtle difference is in meaning between them - they are in different tenses. Tense is hard for me.

Yes, I am also wondering about differences of usage.

(a) is in the present continuous, meaning this action is happening.
(b) is in the present simple. What does this mean? Does it mean this action is finished but is a regular action?

The context in my mind is:

I am writing distinct, individual items, and then I should the word "between". Every time when I write distinct, individual items, I should the word "between".

So which one should I choose, (a) or (b)?

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Could you tell me how I can ask this kind of question?

 

[jutfrank]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

Thank you, jutfrank. With so many questions, I can feel your being upset.

I'm not upset. My tone was meant to be one of mild impatience and frustration. I spend quite a lot of time responding to your posts (which I'm happy to do), so I really wish you would improve your questions. If you did, it would make your posts easier to answer and it would also help you understand things better.

I use the term "acceptable" to mean this usage is grammatical and sounds natural to native speakers.

But you already know that the original sentence is the best way of expressing the idea, so why would you change it? I thought that the reason you like to reformulate sentences like that is that it helps you to understand the structure and meaning. That's what you told me before, right? The next time you ask about a sentence that you have altered, do not ask whether it is natural. Just ask whether we think it's a reasonable way of reformulating the thought for the specific purposes of your trying to get your head around it. Also, don't bother asking whether it's grammatical—we'll tell you that anyway.

a. The word "between" is used when youare naming distinct, individual items ....
b. The word "between" is used when you name distinct, individual items ....

I made up both of these sentences and asked "what is the difference in meaning between them", because I thought they both seemed work, but I didn't know what the subtle difference is in meaning between them - they are in different tenses. Tense is hard for me.

1) I'd like to make a point here, if you don't mind. There is a tremendously important difference between meaning and use. Many, many of the members who ask questions on this forum fail to understand this, often asking questions about differences of meaning when what they really want to know concerns use. You haven't really done it in this thread, but you often do. A very large proportion of your questions on this forum are related to the meaning of things. That is not of course necessarily a bad thing, but it seems to me that you are often so preoccupied with meaning that it sometimes impedes your learning. I think it will really help you if you start thinking about language more as a tool, which you can do things with, rather than merely as a means of expressing meaning. Remember that the name of this forum is Using English. Our main aim here is to advise members on appropriate use of language.

2) There are different kinds of meaning. Let me explain in common terms:

The two sentences a. and b. that you have made have the same meaning in the sense that, if uttered, they would lead to identical outcomes. That means that the reader would interpret the messages conveyed by them in exactly the same way. This is what I sometimes call effective meaning (because both sentences 'effect' the world in identical ways). And this is apparently what emsr2d2 understood you were asking about, judging from her response in post #9.

However, on the other hand, the two sentences have different meanings in that they differ in aspect (what you're calling different 'tenses'). The first uses a continuous aspect and the second uses a simple aspect. That means that the writer (if he were a competent enough user) would have a slightly different picture in his mind when using one from the picture he would have when using the other. I'll explain these different pictures below, but for now—just ask yourself this: Does the fact that the two sentences differ in aspect mean that they have different meaning? There's no right or wrong answer to this question. I just want you to think more carefully in future about what exactly you want to know.

I hope in future you may remember to tell us whether you want to know about differences in use or differences in meaning, and if the latter, which kind of meaning you are thinking about.

(a) is in the present continuous, meaning this action is happening.

Well, the action is not happening now, is it? A writer would use the continuous aspect to mean that the word between is used by the user during the process of naming items.

(b) is in the present simple. What does this mean? Does it mean this action is finished but is a regular action?

No, it doesn't mean that anything is finished or regular. The writer would use a simple aspect (another way of saying 'no aspect') because he imagines two simple events happening simultaneously: the event of naming items (let's call it 'Event N') and the event of using the word between (let's call it 'Event B').

Let me say that again. In the speaker's mind (provided the speaker was a proficient user of English, fully competent in using aspect effectively):

In a. there is an idea of Event B happening during a longer Event N.
In b. there is a simple idea of two events, B and N, occurring simultaneously.


I've just spent over 40 minutes writing this post so I hope that convinces you that I am happy to continue to try to help you understand the meaning and use of language. I'm sorry if I made you think I was upset. Please think about what I've said here very carefully, and try to reflect your understanding in the way you ask your coming questions.

 

[kadioguy]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

I'm not upset. My tone was meant to be one of mild impatience and frustration. I spend quite a lot of time responding to your posts (which I'm happy to do), so I really wish you would improve your questions. If you did, it would make your posts easier to answer and it would also help you understand things better.

I am sorry for that. My English isn't good, so I can only use limited words to describe my questions.

But you already know that the original sentence is the best way of expressing the idea, so why would you change it? I thought that the reason you like to reformulate sentences like that is that it helps you to understand the structure and meaning. That's what you told me before, right?

Yes, when I list original sentence A and my version B, that means I think B could also be used, but there could be some difference which I don't know - what if I use B? Does it mean the same thing as A? Can I get the same outcome? (I want learn more about it.)

I'd like to make a point here, if you don't mind. There is a tremendously important difference between meaning and use. Many, many of the members who ask questions on this forum fail to understand this, often asking questions about differences of meaning when what they really want to know concerns use.

Thank you for pointing out that, which I didn't realize.

The two sentences a. and b. that you have made have the same meaning in the sense that, if uttered, they would lead to identical outcomes. That means that the reader would interpret the messages conveyed by them in exactly the same way. This is what I sometimes call effective meaning (because both sentences 'effect' the world in identical ways). And this is apparently what emsr2d2 understood you were asking about, judging from her response in post #9.

However, on the other hand, the two sentences have different meanings in that they differ in aspect (what you're calling different 'tenses'). The first uses a continuous aspect and the second uses a simple aspect. That means that the writer (if he were a competent enough user) would have a slightly different picture in his mind when using one from the picture he would have when using the other.

(Sentence a.)
Well, the action is not happening now, is it? A writer would use the continuous aspect to mean that the word between is used by the user during the process of naming items.
(Sentence b.)
No, it doesn't mean that anything is finished or regular. The writer would use a simple aspect (another way of saying 'no aspect') because he imagines two simple events happening simultaneously: the event of naming items (let's call it 'Event N') and the event of using the word between (let's call it 'Event B').

Let me say that again. In the speaker's mind (provided the speaker was a proficient user of English, fully competent in using aspect effectively):

In a. there is an idea of Event B happening during a longer Event N.
In b. there is a simple idea of two events, B and N, occurring simultaneously.

Yes, jutfrank, combining these two parts is an ideal answer for my question. This is what I wanted to know!

I just want you to think more carefully in future about what exactly you want to know. I hope in future you may remember to tell us whether you want to know about differences in use or differences in meaning, and if the latter, which kind of meaning you are thinking about.

Could you tell me how I can ask my questions if I would like to get answers like the two parts above? Now, please let me try it:
---------
Sentence a. XXX
Sentence b. OOO

1. Do they mean the same in effective meaning? If not, could you tell me about it?
2. They are different in aspect, so what is the difference in use between them?
---------
Do you think this kind of question better?

I've just spent over 40 minutes writing this post so I hope that convinces you that I am happy to continue to try to help you understand the meaning and use of language. I'm sorry if I made you think I was upset. Please think about what I've said here very carefully, and try to reflect your understanding in the way you ask your coming questions.

I am grateful for your spending so much time writing this response. This post is precious. :up:

 

[emsr2d2]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

Yes, when I list original sentence A and my version B, that means I think B could also be used, but there could be some difference which I don't know - what if I use B? Does it mean the same thing as A? Can I get the same outcome? (I want learn more about it.)

I'm equally puzzled by what you're looking for. Imagine, for example, that you give us "Pass me that book" as sentence A and "Please pass me that book" as sentence B.
Do they mean the same? Yes.
Is there any difference between them? Yes, B is more polite.
Is there any difference in meaning? No.
Can I get the same outcome? (This is your question in the quote above.) Of course you'll get the same outcome. Either the person will pass you the book or they'll refuse to pass you the book.

 

[Tarheel]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

Kadioguy, your posts indicate a high level of competence. So I disagree with you that you are not good at English.

You and jutfrank are a good match.

Most native speakers have little or no interest in talking about language. They are perfectly happy at being competent at using the language (English).

 

[kadioguy]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

I'm equally puzzled by what you're looking for. Imagine, for example, that you give us "Pass me that book" as sentence A and "Please pass me that book" as sentence B.
Do they mean the same? Yes.
Is there any difference between them? Yes, B is more polite.
Is there any difference in meaning? No.
Can I get the same outcome? [/COLOR](This is your question in the quote above.) Of course you'll get the same outcome. Either the person will pass you the book or they'll refuse to pass you the book.

Hi emsr2d2,

So the question is: why do I write my own version and ask you about it?

My answer about this is: Imagining myself as a child learning English, I usually think my version could also work, but what is the difference from the original one? I would like to know, if any. Take this for example:

I:
"Pass me that book" as sentence A and "Please pass me that book" as sentence B.
1. Do they mean the same?
2. Is there any difference between them?
3. Can I get the same outcome?

You:
1. Yes.
2. Yes, B is more polite.
3. Of course you'll get the same outcome. Either the person will pass you the book or they'll refuse to pass you the book

In this case I will learn from your answer:
(a) and (b) mean the same, but (b) is more polite. So I can use both, but (b) will be a better choice if I want to show my being polite.

As you can see, I will have learned some things from this question (or in fact, from your answer). This is why I usually make up my own version and compare it with the original.

Kadioguy, your posts indicate a high level of competence. So I disagree with you that you are not good at English.

You and jutfrank are a good match.

Most native speakers have little or no interest in talking about language. They are perfectly happy at being competent at using the language (English)

Thank you, Tarheel.

Most of the members here are interested in talking about language and have patience with learners.

 

[jutfrank]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

I am sorry for that. My English isn't good, so I can only use limited words to describe my questions.

That is not what I mean. I'm not asking you to improve your English, I'm asking you to improve your questions.

Yes, when I list original sentence A and my version B, that means I think B could also be used

Well, that is not the impression you give. It seems to us that you are simply trying to get your head around the structure, in order to understand the sentence better.

but there could be some difference which I don't know - what if I use B?

Please stop asking this question. Don't use B. Just use A. Focus your questions on A.

Does it mean the same thing as A? Can I get the same outcome?

It may or may not mean the same thing as A, but it doesn't matter. Use A because A is the best way to say it. You can ask as many questions as you like about A, as long as they are about A, not B!

I'll repeat:

1) Focus your questioning on the usage of A.

2) Stop focusing on differences in meaning between A and B.

3) Stop asking about meaning so much in general. It's often very clear to me that you know very well what something means when you say that you don't. I sometimes feel like you are deliberately attempting to convince yourself that you don't know what something means when you do. I know you're not really trying to do that, but that's how it seems. That's one of the effects of asking the wrong questions.

I am grateful for your spending so much time writing this response. This post is precious. :up:

You are very welcome, my friend.

 

[jutfrank]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

Could you tell me how I can ask my questions if I would like to get answers like the two parts above? Now, please let me try it:
---------
Sentence a. XXX
Sentence b. OOO

1. Do they mean the same in effective meaning? If not, could you tell me about it?
2. They are different in aspect, so what is the difference in use between them?
---------
Do you think this kind of question better?

Here's my answer to this, along with some general advice. Bear in mind that other members will probably have quite different answers.

Generally speaking, I really think you should avoid asking us what the difference in meaning is, because a) it unnecessarily leads us to focus on meaning, and b) it may lead us to different interpretations of what kind of meaning you mean. You could simply ask What are the differences between a and b? This will open the question to all kinds of difference—aspect, sense, naturalness, formality, usage patterns, etc.

Another question that I think works well is Of a and b, which is better? or Of a and b, which should I use? Again, these questions are open enough for us to give you quick, simple, diverse, and clear answers. Those of us who wish to provide reasons for our advice, and/or any accompanying explanations, will do so without being asked.

If you really do want to ask about meaning, though, it will be very useful if you remember the following two distinctions:.

1) effective meaning versus analytic meaning

This is as I explained in my previous post so I won't go into it again. A good way to ask about effective meaning is this: Would both sentences have the same effect? Here, you can avoid using the word 'meaning' altogether.

2) speaker meaning versus sentence meaning

I think I've explained this to you before, but I'd like to remind you how very important this difference is. Speaker meaning is about what the speaker means, regardless of what he says. Sentence meaning is about what the words mean, regardless of what the speaker is trying to do. My opinion is that you tend to focus far too much on sentence meaning and not enough on speaker meaning. Please take some time to understand this very important difference, and try to apply your understanding to the way you ask your future questions. This will improve your questioning enormously, and lead you to much better answers. (It will also save us a lot of time when answering, I think.)

Another point I want to make is this: As a general rule, I would also advise avoiding questions like Is X acceptable? or Is X correct? and even Is X natural?, because the members here have different ideas of what those questions mean.

 

[kadioguy]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

You are very welcome, my friend.

Thank you, jutfrank.
If you don't mind, please give me a chance to explain.

There two types of questions I may ask in the forum:

Type 1.
There is a sentence, which I don't understand, so I ask about it.

Type 2.
There is a sentence (let me call it sentence A), which I may understand, but it reminds me of another sentence (let me call it sentence B). Sentence B looks similar to sentence A; however, they are not actually the same, so I would like to compare them and know if there is a difference in (effective) meaning and usage between them. This kind of question is, for example, the one in post #8 and #16.

I think your answer in post #12 is perfect for this kind of question. Please let me quote it again: (I learned a lot from this answer. Really!)

The two sentences a. and b. that you have made have the same meaning in the sense that, if uttered, they would lead to identical outcomes. That means that the reader would interpret the messages conveyed by them in exactly the same way. This is what I sometimes call effective meaning (because both sentences 'effect' the world in identical ways). And this is apparently what emsr2d2 understood you were asking about, judging from her response in post #9.

However, on the other hand, the two sentences have different meanings in that they differ in aspect (what you're calling different 'tenses'). The first uses a continuous aspect and the second uses a simple aspect. That means that the writer (if he were a competent enough user) would have a slightly different picture in his mind when using one from the picture he would have when using the other.

(Sentence a.)
Well, the action is not happening now, is it? A writer would use the continuous aspect to mean that the word between is used by the user duringthe process of naming items.
(Sentence b.)
No, it doesn't mean that anything is finished or regular. The writer would use a simple aspect (another way of saying 'no aspect') because he imagines two simple events happening simultaneously: the event of naming items (let's call it 'Event N') and the event of using the word between (let's call it 'Event B').

Let me say that again. In the speaker's mind (provided the speaker was a proficient user of English, fully competent in using aspect effectively):

In a. there is an idea of Event B happening during a longer Event N.
In b. there is a simple idea of two events, B and N, occurring simultaneously.

(I cross-posted it with jutfrank's post #18)

 

[jutfrank]

Re: "Between" is used when naming distinct, individual items (can be 2, 3, or more).

Type 2.
There is a sentence (let me call it sentence A), which I may understand, but it reminds me of another sentence (let me call it sentence B). Sentence B looks similar to sentence A; however, they are not actually the same, so I would like to compare them and know if there is a difference in (effective) meaning and usage between them.

Okay, but sentence B exists only in your mind. It's not an authentic sentence. What's more, you're a non-native speaker, so it's rather unlikely that B is as good as A, very unlikely that B is better than A, and quite likely that B is completely inappropriate, so why bother focusing on it at all? Why not just try to learn what you can from sentence A?

If you're really curious about B, you could ask Is it better to use B? and we'll reassure you by answering No, use A.

(I must accept, though, that you are very good at spotting errors. In some rare cases, sentence A is simply wrong, but that's beside the point I'm trying to make here.)